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Caregiving meant healing herself, too","2026-09-01T15:45:22.326Z","2026-09-01T15:50:15.477Z","2026-09-01T15:50:15.488Z",215400129878194,"144a223b-01fa-4566-b26c-2f6b6cd373ed",{"_uid":2301,"body":2302,"authors":2320,"excerpt":14,"summary":2322,"component":1878,"categories":2323,"article_type":1880,"external_link":2324,"featured_image":2325,"external_link_text":2330,"listing_thumbnail_image":2331},"38fb8d5c-e5f1-4819-9fc0-7ff6e5e2d061",{"type":62,"attrs":2303,"content":2304},{"backgroundColor":67},[2305,2310,2315],{"type":65,"attrs":2306,"content":2307},{"textAlign":67},[2308],{"text":2309,"type":71},"Beth Ayn Stansfield, of Virginia, was excited when her preteen told her she wanted to start running together.",{"type":65,"attrs":2311,"content":2312},{"textAlign":67},[2313],{"text":2314,"type":71},"\"Initially, she came home from school one day, middle school, and announced that she just wanted to get healthy and that she was going to go on a diet,\" Stansfield said. \"At that time, I didn't give it much thought because I was on the South Beach diet.\"",{"type":65,"attrs":2316,"content":2317},{"textAlign":67},[2318],{"text":2319,"type":71},"Stansfield enjoyed bonding with her daughter, Carly, through food and exercise, especially working out together as a way to have fun and relieve stress. But she soon realized that for Carly, \"it started to become extreme.\" At first Carly eliminated sweets. Then she cut out all carbs. Stansfield then noticed her daughter sometimes skipped meals altogether.",[2321],"1d5cd4af-12a4-4c28-911c-6884dbf73df1","USA Today recently put a spotlight on the lived experience perspective of ERC National Family Advocate Beth Ayn Stansfield who shared her story of supporting a daughter in eating disorder treatment while also recognizing her own complex relationship with food. This thoughtful article highlights a situation many caregivers may go through while caring for a child with an eating disorder -- and addresses the complexities of living in a diet-culture and GLP-1-driven society.",[],"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.usatoday.com\u002Fstory\u002Flife\u002Fhealth-wellness\u002F2026\u002F07\u002F27\u002Fchild-parent-eating-disorder-recovery\u002F90997723007\u002F",{"id":2326,"alt":2327,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":2328,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":2329,"is_external_url":177},215400775769246,"Beth Ayn Stansfield with daughters posing at the beach","https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F441x460\u002F0389a68824\u002Fbeth-ayn-stansfield-daughters.png",{"alt":2327,"title":14,"source":14,"copyright":14},"Read more",{"id":2326,"alt":2327,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":2328,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":2332,"is_external_url":177},{"alt":2327,"title":14,"source":14,"copyright":14},"child-parent-eating-disorder-recovery","news\u002Fchild-parent-eating-disorder-recovery",-4900,[],"a551d1fa-fc6c-40a7-b5ba-de204a97bcb8",[],{"name":2340,"created_at":2341,"published_at":2342,"updated_at":2343,"id":2344,"uuid":2345,"content":2346,"slug":2391,"full_slug":2392,"sort_by_date":67,"position":2393,"tag_list":2394,"is_startpage":177,"parent_id":1896,"meta_data":67,"group_id":2395,"first_published_at":2342,"release_id":67,"lang":201,"path":67,"alternates":2396,"default_full_slug":67,"translated_slugs":67},"Parents may not know: Baltimore expert warns AI chatbots can encourage disordered eating","2026-09-01T15:33:29.337Z","2026-09-01T15:38:20.050Z","2026-09-01T15:38:20.062Z",215397209483565,"a7148c77-c3c7-46bd-b0da-98b153f79503",{"_uid":2347,"body":2348,"authors":2376,"excerpt":14,"summary":2378,"component":1878,"categories":2379,"article_type":1914,"external_link":2380,"featured_image":2381,"external_link_text":2330,"listing_thumbnail_image":2388},"54d16e8d-7833-4742-afab-7bfb61cd093e",{"type":62,"attrs":2349,"content":2350},{"backgroundColor":67},[2351,2356,2361,2366,2371],{"type":65,"attrs":2352,"content":2353},{"textAlign":67},[2354],{"text":2355,"type":71},"HUNT VALLEY, Md. — Psychologists are warning parents about a new trend of kids using artificial intelligence chatbots as a \"secret eating disorder coach.\"",{"type":65,"attrs":2357,"content":2358},{"textAlign":67},[2359],{"text":2360,"type":71},"Not only do the chatbots give tips on weight loss, but they may also encourage disordered eating.",{"type":65,"attrs":2362,"content":2363},{"textAlign":67},[2364],{"text":2365,"type":71},"Dr. Kaitlin Slaven, an expert with the Eating Recovery Center in Baltimore, told WBAL-TV 11 News that parents may have no idea it's going on.",{"type":65,"attrs":2367,"content":2368},{"textAlign":67},[2369],{"text":2370,"type":71},"\"These chatbots are equipped with tools to be able to sort of gather information and learn. And so, as somebody is inputting information about 'I'm trying to lose weight,' and the chatbot is saying, 'Good job, you're losing weight.' And so, they start to adapt to what is happening and they start to almost encourage the behavior,\" Slaven explained.",{"type":65,"attrs":2372,"content":2373},{"textAlign":67},[2374],{"text":2375,"type":71},"Slaven advises parents to pay attention to clues.",[2377],"86c19221-c58b-4139-9138-a4cde149c18f","ERC's Dr. Kaitlin Slaven was a featured guest recently on WBAL to share insight about how AI chatbots are impacting eating disorders in kids. In this segment, Dr. Slaven discusses how these problematic chatbots work; what signs caregivers should watch for; and understanding how to access help.",[],"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.wbaltv.com\u002Farticle\u002Fai-chatbots-disordered-eating-baltimore\u002F73172472",{"id":2382,"alt":2383,"name":14,"focus":2384,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":2385,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":2386,"is_external_url":177},215397905808365,"Dr. Kaitlin Slaven was a featured guest recently on WBAL to share insight about how AI chatbots on eating disorders","659x220:660x221","https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F900x556\u002Faff736e1fd\u002Fkaitlins-slaven-wbaltv-11-nbc.png",{"alt":2383,"size":2387,"title":14,"source":14,"copyright":14},"900x556",{"id":2382,"alt":2383,"name":14,"focus":2389,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":2385,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":2390,"is_external_url":177},"672x206:673x207",{"alt":2383,"size":2387,"title":14,"source":14,"copyright":14},"ai-chatbots-disordered-eating-baltimore","news\u002Fai-chatbots-disordered-eating-baltimore",-4890,[],"732a7f18-be5e-46bc-a614-40b1b1581381",[],[],[],{"age":2400,"cache-control":2401,"connection":2402,"content-encoding":2403,"content-type":2404,"date":2405,"etag":2406,"per-page":2407,"referrer-policy":2408,"sb-be-version":2409,"server":2410,"strict-transport-security":2411,"total":2412,"transfer-encoding":2413,"vary":2414,"via":2415,"x-amz-cf-id":2416,"x-amz-cf-pop":2417,"x-cache":2418,"x-content-type-options":2419,"x-frame-options":2420,"x-permitted-cross-domain-policies":2421,"x-request-id":2422,"x-runtime":2423,"x-xss-protection":1974},"3674","max-age=0, public, s-maxage=604800, stale-if-error=3600","keep-alive","gzip","application\u002Fjson; charset=utf-8","Fri, 06 Nov 2026 15:07:16 GMT","W\u002F\"3345342f949c9a5dc5c450486a2b9dd4\"","4","strict-origin-when-cross-origin","5.1002.0","nginx","max-age=31536000","478","chunked","Origin,Accept-Encoding","1.1 18f4d2895273eb518f03b4c831d8c396.cloudfront.net (CloudFront)","LkRgQkl3Nq5pifqN040bS_RSVQ-mqYXOTyYnQP10WqBRQ8IyYQ_PvQ==","IAD55-P6","Hit from cloudfront","nosniff","SAMEORIGIN","none","9429368c-7803-4f73-9dba-b00a64668748","0.095296",4,478,{"data":2427,"headers":4105},{"story":2428,"cv":203,"rels":4103,"links":4104},{"name":2429,"created_at":2430,"published_at":2431,"updated_at":2432,"id":2433,"uuid":2434,"content":2435,"slug":4096,"full_slug":4097,"sort_by_date":67,"position":4098,"tag_list":4099,"is_startpage":177,"parent_id":3238,"meta_data":67,"group_id":4100,"first_published_at":4101,"release_id":67,"lang":201,"path":67,"alternates":4102,"default_full_slug":67,"translated_slugs":67},"Weight Stigma in Health Care","2026-03-17T14:12:33.726Z","2026-03-17T14:38:25.128Z","2026-03-17T14:38:25.150Z",155923061709469,"4c03797b-cc4a-4106-b75f-c893a5ad59af",{"_uid":2436,"body":2437,"component":4095,"meta_title":14,"meta_description":14},"d9722f8f-a3bf-4385-aff3-7cc815e6ee58",[2438,2467,2489,2554,2694,2904,3127,4068],{"_uid":2439,"cta_1":2440,"cta_2":2441,"video":177,"eyebrow":14,"heading":2443,"subtext":2444,"component":2456,"cta_1_style":2457,"cta_1_title":2458,"cta_2_style":2459,"cta_2_title":2460,"heading_tag":2461,"background_image":2462,"content_alignment":2466,"heading_appearance":2461,"cloudflare_stream_video_id":14},"39fb244a-260d-410d-90c9-e9ae1979f470",{"id":14,"url":43,"linktype":17,"fieldtype":18,"cached_url":43},{"id":14,"url":2442,"linktype":17,"fieldtype":18,"cached_url":2442},"tel:866-319-0445","Weight Stigma in Healthcare",{"type":62,"content":2445},[2446,2451],{"type":65,"attrs":2447,"content":2448},{"textAlign":67},[2449],{"text":2450,"type":71},"Bodies come in various shapes and sizes. All bodies require respectful healthcare.",{"type":65,"attrs":2452,"content":2453},{"textAlign":67},[2454],{"text":2455,"type":71},"Unfortunately, not all bodies are treated equally. Anti-fat bias is present not only within our society but within our healthcare system too.","ContentHeroV5","primary teal","Schedule An Assessment","secondary white","866-319-0445","h1",{"id":2463,"alt":14,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":2464,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":2465,"is_external_url":177},155923647995213,"https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F2560x900\u002Ff183d311f4\u002Fgroup-of-providers-header-crop-1.webp",{},"left",{"cta":2468,"_uid":2469,"video":177,"heading":2470,"reverse":177,"subtext":2471,"component":2483,"cta_title":14,"heading_tag":2484,"button_style":2457,"featured_image":2485,"youtube_video_id":14,"heading_appearance":2484,"cloudflare_stream_video_id":14},{"id":14,"url":14,"linktype":31,"fieldtype":18,"cached_url":14},"5ab3a135-9527-4c73-bad2-82c0f0c1f96d","Mission\u002FPledge",{"type":62,"content":2472},[2473,2478],{"type":65,"attrs":2474,"content":2475},{"textAlign":67},[2476],{"text":2477,"type":71},"At Eating Recovery Center and Pathlight Mood & Anxiety Center, our teams are deeply committed to creating a size inclusive healthcare environment. We believe that all bodies are deserving of respect and quality healthcare, and we are committed to fighting weight stigma. Therefore, we ensure that our clinicians and staff are compassionately and professionally trained to honor and support our patients wherever they are on their journey with recovery and their relationship to their body. Here at ERC Pathlight, we strive to provide all individuals with accessible, competent, and individualized care without discriminating based on body shape, weight or size.",{"type":65,"attrs":2479,"content":2480},{"textAlign":67},[2481],{"text":2482,"type":71},"We acknowledge that we have work to do to become more inclusive in our facilities and pledge to continue working to create spaces that are inclusive and accessible for all bodies within our treatment facilities. In addition, we are committed to training professionals and community members regarding the harmful effects of weight stigma in our society, and in particular our healthcare system. We understand that research surrounding eating disorders is limiting with respect to size diversity; we are committed to learning from those with lived experience to inform and evolve our practice. By raising awareness and educating ourselves and others on the harm caused by engaging in anti-fat bias, we hope to help create more inclusive healthcare, where all bodies feel safe and can receive respectful care.","ContentImageFiftyFifty","h2",{"id":2486,"alt":14,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":2487,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":2488,"is_external_url":177},155923875093885,"https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F600x600\u002Fcb05e33c99\u002F5q8a0476.webp",{},{"_uid":2490,"heading":14,"subtext":2491,"component":2549,"heading_tag":14,"featured_image":2550,"heading_appearance":14},"04a42151-9b75-4088-bdf6-db005651b141",{"type":62,"content":2492},[2493,2498,2544],{"type":65,"attrs":2494,"content":2495},{"textAlign":67},[2496],{"text":2497,"type":71},"Weight stigma is deeply entrenched in our society and healthcare system, it persists relentlessly, and it takes a detrimental toll on the physical and mental well-being of individuals across the size spectrum. For those living in larger bodies, the scale and impact of adverse health implications from weight bias is not fully known, but can include (and are not limited to):",{"type":2499,"content":2500},"bullet_list",[2501,2509,2516,2523,2530,2537],{"type":2502,"content":2503},"list_item",[2504],{"type":65,"attrs":2505,"content":2506},{"textAlign":67},[2507],{"text":2508,"type":71},"Lack of trust with providers",{"type":2502,"content":2510},[2511],{"type":65,"attrs":2512,"content":2513},{"textAlign":67},[2514],{"text":2515,"type":71},"Avoiding healthcare appointments",{"type":2502,"content":2517},[2518],{"type":65,"attrs":2519,"content":2520},{"textAlign":67},[2521],{"text":2522,"type":71},"Inadequate care for health conditions",{"type":2502,"content":2524},[2525],{"type":65,"attrs":2526,"content":2527},{"textAlign":67},[2528],{"text":2529,"type":71},"Low self-esteem and depression",{"type":2502,"content":2531},[2532],{"type":65,"attrs":2533,"content":2534},{"textAlign":67},[2535],{"text":2536,"type":71},"Health concerns being dismissed and blamed on body size",{"type":2502,"content":2538},[2539],{"type":65,"attrs":2540,"content":2541},{"textAlign":67},[2542],{"text":2543,"type":71},"Overlooked diagnoses, including eating disorders",{"type":65,"attrs":2545,"content":2546},{"textAlign":67},[2547],{"text":2548,"type":71},"Continuing to overlook or even flat-out ignore the importance of size inclusivity further perpetuates the thin ideal we see around us and can lead to health disparities and psychological distress. Here at ERC Pathlight we are taking a stand within the healthcare setting and creating an environment that treats all bodies with the care they deserve, which has the power to transform the lives of many. Providing medical care free of weight bias will not only improve the patient\u002Fprovider relationship, but also, improve the accuracy of eating disorder diagnosis and allow for life saving interventions.","Content5050V13",{"id":2551,"alt":14,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":2552,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":2553,"is_external_url":177},155924192816577,"https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F600x399\u002F10caada8f1\u002Fholiday-tips-for-bed.webp",{},{"cta":2555,"_uid":2556,"eyebrow":14,"heading":2557,"subtext":2558,"component":2565,"cta_title":14,"faq_items":2566,"heading_tag":2484,"heading_appearance":2484},{"id":14,"url":14,"linktype":31,"fieldtype":18,"cached_url":14},"beabe53f-7b6a-450b-9581-52a4e6fa28c7","FAQ and Helpful Statistics",{"type":62,"content":2559},[2560],{"type":65,"attrs":2561,"content":2562},{"textAlign":67},[2563],{"text":2564,"type":71},"ERC Pathlight believes that the Body Mass Index (BMI) is not a good indicator of health and should generally not be relied upon when assessing an individual’s overall health or risk of disease development and progression.","ContentFaq",[2567,2578,2588,2598,2608,2618,2638,2657],{"_uid":2568,"name":2569,"value":2570,"component":2577},"82dba4c1-f578-42dc-8c0e-99928db0b1bd","What is weight stigma?",{"type":62,"content":2571},[2572],{"type":65,"attrs":2573,"content":2574},{"textAlign":67},[2575],{"text":2576,"type":71},"Weight stigma refers to an individual or group of individuals being discriminated against for having a larger body. Weight stigma occurs both directly and indirectly all around us in our daily lives.","name_value",{"_uid":2579,"name":2580,"value":2581,"component":2577},"69aab21d-3dbc-47cc-840a-171dbad108d8","What is body diversity?",{"type":62,"content":2582},[2583],{"type":65,"attrs":2584,"content":2585},{"textAlign":67},[2586],{"text":2587,"type":71},"Body diversity refers to the acknowledgement that all bodies are inherently different. Diversity in the human body can refer to weight, shape, height, and skin color – just to name a few.",{"_uid":2589,"name":2590,"value":2591,"component":2577},"cb948040-78d7-4a77-9bf5-b1c918043f42","What is body neutrality?",{"type":62,"content":2592},[2593],{"type":65,"attrs":2594,"content":2595},{"textAlign":67},[2596],{"text":2597,"type":71},"Body neutrality focuses on accepting one's body the way it is and emphasizing the body giving us inherent abilities such as life, breath, even movement. Body neutrality is neither positive nor negative. Body neutrality differs from body positivity in that it does not place focus on moving towards having positive feelings about one's body shape\u002Fsize\u002Fabilities. We acknowledge that in a world in which anti-fat bias, racism, anti-trans bias, and other forms of body oppression exist, weight neutrality may not always be possible.",{"_uid":2599,"name":2600,"value":2601,"component":2577},"30f24108-51b2-435c-b6ad-8f72e8ba0c77","What is anti-fat bias",{"type":62,"content":2602},[2603],{"type":65,"attrs":2604,"content":2605},{"textAlign":67},[2606],{"text":2607,"type":71},"Anti-fat bias refers to the implicit and explicit bias placed on fat bodies. These biases within the healthcare setting may be present in several ways: lack of appropriate seating options, narrow patient beds, small blood pressure cuffs, assumptions regarding work ethic, movement habits and dietary choices, to name a few.",{"_uid":2609,"name":2610,"value":2611,"component":2577},"a1b569d3-398f-411d-add1-6597a31ffb96","How can I talk about bodies in an affirming and inclusive way?",{"type":62,"content":2612},[2613],{"type":65,"attrs":2614,"content":2615},{"textAlign":67},[2616],{"text":2617,"type":71},"The term fat has been reclaimed by many activists to be used as a descriptor for their body size free of shame, guilt, or moral value. It is important to remember that not all individuals are comfortable using this word to describe their bodies and they may still view it negatively. When speaking with others, it is important to be respectful of how they prefer to describe their bodies. When in doubt, ask!",{"_uid":2619,"name":2620,"value":2621,"component":2577},"a50c504a-ff5f-4e26-9bb4-899f6ace73f2","What is the Body Mass Index (BMI)?",{"type":62,"content":2622},[2623,2628],{"type":65,"attrs":2624,"content":2625},{"textAlign":67},[2626],{"text":2627,"type":71},"BMI is a simple fraction that describes a person's weight to height ratio; it is a person's weight in kilograms divided by their height is meters squared. When it was conceptualized nearly 200 years ago, it was for the purposes of understanding large groups of humans, not for estimating the needs or the circumstances of individual people. In use today, BMI is an outdated metric that can advance biased assumptions about a person's body fat, and by extension, their overall health. BMI is a simple math equation that does not factor in a person's distribution of body fat, ethnicity, gender, ethnicity, age, vital signs, lab values or bone and muscle mass.",{"type":65,"attrs":2629,"content":2630},{"textAlign":67},[2631,2633],{"text":2632,"type":71},"Source: ",{"text":2634,"type":71,"marks":2635},"https:\u002F\u002Fpolicysearch.ama-assn.org\u002Fpolicyfinder",[2636],{"type":104,"attrs":2637},{"href":2634,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"_uid":2639,"name":2640,"value":2641,"component":2577},"5cbb89ae-ea3a-4549-a18f-a1975e7d9bcf","How does the BMI chart perpetuate racism within our healthcare system?",{"type":62,"content":2642},[2643,2648],{"type":65,"attrs":2644,"content":2645},{"textAlign":67},[2646],{"text":2647,"type":71},"The BMI scale was originally created nearly 200 years ago by a mathematician based off the typical frame\u002Fstature of Eastern European males. It does not consider the differences in heathy, strong body structures within other ethnicities and genders. Countless studies have found that this scale is problematic when estimating health risks in diverse populations.",{"type":65,"attrs":2649,"content":2650},{"textAlign":67},[2651,2652],{"text":2632,"type":71},{"text":2653,"type":71,"marks":2654},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\u002Fpmc\u002Farticles\u002FPMC2873180\u002F",[2655],{"type":104,"attrs":2656},{"href":2653,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"_uid":2658,"name":2659,"value":2660,"component":2577},"2c25c740-2bc2-4889-89c8-1d73d0c4fe71","How does weight bias negatively impact the provider\u002Fpatient relationship?",{"type":62,"content":2661},[2662,2667,2676,2685],{"type":65,"attrs":2663,"content":2664},{"textAlign":67},[2665],{"text":2666,"type":71},"Weight bias is on the rise, with one study showing a 66% increase within the last decade in the USA. It has been shown that individuals in a larger body have a higher rate of delaying visits with their primary care providers in an effort to avoid being stigmatized based on their body size. Additional studies reveal some medical providers spend less time assessing and treating individuals based on their body size. Furthermore, weight bias within our healthcare system exists both implicitly and explicitly. Both result in a decrease in the quality of care provided to individuals in larger bodies.",{"type":65,"attrs":2668,"content":2669},{"textAlign":67},[2670,2671],{"text":2632,"type":71},{"text":2672,"type":71,"marks":2673},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\u002Fpmc\u002Farticles\u002FPMC6650789\u002F",[2674],{"type":104,"attrs":2675},{"href":2672,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"type":65,"attrs":2677,"content":2678},{"textAlign":67},[2679,2680],{"text":2632,"type":71},{"text":2681,"type":71,"marks":2682},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\u002Fpmc\u002Farticles\u002FPMC6311448\u002F",[2683],{"type":104,"attrs":2684},{"href":2681,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"type":65,"attrs":2686,"content":2687},{"textAlign":67},[2688,2689],{"text":2632,"type":71},{"text":2690,"type":71,"marks":2691},"https:\u002F\u002Fpublications.aap.org\u002Fpediatrics\u002Farticle\u002F140\u002F6\u002Fe20173034\u002F38277\u002FStigma-Experienced-by-Children-and-Adolescents",[2692],{"type":104,"attrs":2693},{"href":2690,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"_uid":2695,"items":2696,"heading":2895,"subtext":2896,"component":2903,"heading_tag":2484,"heading_appearance":2484},"f4cc9d73-8e7f-4d06-8a4b-fe5b9554199c",[2697,2746,2783,2839],{"_uid":2698,"title":443,"component":2699,"popup_content":2700},"1cb85d50-84a8-4a6e-8279-4cfeb13f0db2","popup_resources_item",{"type":62,"content":2701},[2702],{"type":2499,"content":2703},[2704,2716,2726,2736],{"type":2502,"content":2705},[2706],{"type":65,"attrs":2707,"content":2708},{"textAlign":67},[2709],{"text":2710,"type":71,"marks":2711},"Eating Recovery Center Support Groups",[2712],{"type":104,"attrs":2713},{"href":2714,"uuid":440,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":31,"story":2715},"\u002Fsupport-groups\u002F",{"name":443,"id":444,"uuid":440,"slug":441,"url":445,"full_slug":445,"_stopResolving":35},{"type":2502,"content":2717},[2718],{"type":65,"attrs":2719,"content":2720},{"textAlign":67},[2721],{"text":2722,"type":71,"marks":2723},"ANAD",[2724],{"type":104,"attrs":2725},{"href":43,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"type":2502,"content":2727},[2728],{"type":65,"attrs":2729,"content":2730},{"textAlign":67},[2731],{"text":2732,"type":71,"marks":2733},"Eating Disorder Foundation",[2734],{"type":104,"attrs":2735},{"href":43,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"type":2502,"content":2737},[2738],{"type":65,"attrs":2739,"content":2740},{"textAlign":67},[2741],{"text":2742,"type":71,"marks":2743},"National Alliance for Eating Disorders",[2744],{"type":104,"attrs":2745},{"href":43,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"_uid":2747,"title":2748,"component":2699,"popup_content":2749},"b3516a45-9aa1-4fdb-891c-d704fcf3bdc4","Size Inclusive Resources & Talking Points",{"type":62,"content":2750},[2751],{"type":2499,"content":2752},[2753,2763,2773],{"type":2502,"content":2754},[2755],{"type":65,"attrs":2756,"content":2757},{"textAlign":67},[2758],{"text":2759,"type":71,"marks":2760},"Quick Reference Health Card",[2761],{"type":104,"attrs":2762},{"href":43,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"type":2502,"content":2764},[2765],{"type":65,"attrs":2766,"content":2767},{"textAlign":67},[2768],{"text":2769,"type":71,"marks":2770},"Weight Inclusive Doctors Letter",[2771],{"type":104,"attrs":2772},{"href":43,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"type":2502,"content":2774},[2775],{"type":65,"attrs":2776,"content":2777},{"textAlign":67},[2778],{"text":2779,"type":71,"marks":2780},"How to Advocate for your Child at the Doctor’s Office and in Life",[2781],{"type":104,"attrs":2782},{"href":43,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"_uid":2784,"title":2785,"component":2699,"popup_content":2786},"c577d287-3484-4c27-8493-d45ed8598131","Recommended Reading",{"type":62,"content":2787},[2788],{"type":2499,"content":2789},[2790,2797,2804,2811,2818,2825,2832],{"type":2502,"content":2791},[2792],{"type":65,"attrs":2793,"content":2794},{"textAlign":67},[2795],{"text":2796,"type":71},"The Body Is Not An Apology: The Power of Radical Self Love BY: Sonya Renee Taylor",{"type":2502,"content":2798},[2799],{"type":65,"attrs":2800,"content":2801},{"textAlign":67},[2802],{"text":2803,"type":71},"Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origin of Fat Phobia BY: Sabrina Strings",{"type":2502,"content":2805},[2806],{"type":65,"attrs":2807,"content":2808},{"textAlign":67},[2809],{"text":2810,"type":71},"Reclaiming Body Trust- A Path to Healing & Body Liberation BY: Dana Sturtevant and Hilary Kinavey",{"type":2502,"content":2812},[2813],{"type":65,"attrs":2814,"content":2815},{"textAlign":67},[2816],{"text":2817,"type":71},"Belly of the Beast: The Politics of Anti-Fatness and Anti- Blackness BY: Da’Shaun L. Harrison",{"type":2502,"content":2819},[2820],{"type":65,"attrs":2821,"content":2822},{"textAlign":67},[2823],{"text":2824,"type":71},"What We Don’t Talk About When We Talk About Fat BY: Aubrey Gordon",{"type":2502,"content":2826},[2827],{"type":65,"attrs":2828,"content":2829},{"textAlign":67},[2830],{"text":2831,"type":71},"The Wellness Trap: Break Free from Diet Culture, Disinformation and Dubious Diagnosis BY: Christy Harrison",{"type":2502,"content":2833},[2834],{"type":65,"attrs":2835,"content":2836},{"textAlign":67},[2837],{"text":2838,"type":71},"Fat Talk By: Virginia Sole-Smith",{"_uid":2840,"title":1706,"component":2699,"popup_content":2841},"c4315691-e21a-4b91-a3a7-aebbfdb84473",{"type":62,"content":2842},[2843],{"type":2499,"content":2844},[2845,2855,2865,2875,2885],{"type":2502,"content":2846},[2847],{"type":65,"attrs":2848,"content":2849},{"textAlign":67},[2850],{"text":2851,"type":71,"marks":2852},"That’s Not Normal: A Weight Stigma Unlearning Series",[2853],{"type":104,"attrs":2854},{"href":43,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"type":2502,"content":2856},[2857],{"type":65,"attrs":2858,"content":2859},{"textAlign":67},[2860],{"text":2861,"type":71,"marks":2862},"Born Worthy: Navigating Diet Culture’s Burdens and Learning to Be There for Ourselves and Others",[2863],{"type":104,"attrs":2864},{"href":43,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"type":2502,"content":2866},[2867],{"type":65,"attrs":2868,"content":2869},{"textAlign":67},[2870],{"text":2871,"type":71,"marks":2872},"Body Grief Series",[2873],{"type":104,"attrs":2874},{"href":43,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"type":2502,"content":2876},[2877],{"type":65,"attrs":2878,"content":2879},{"textAlign":67},[2880],{"text":2881,"type":71,"marks":2882},"Worthy of an Education: Navigating Anti-Fat Bias in College",[2883],{"type":104,"attrs":2884},{"href":43,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},{"type":2502,"content":2886},[2887],{"type":65,"attrs":2888,"content":2889},{"textAlign":67},[2890],{"text":2891,"type":71,"marks":2892},"Weight Inclusive Care",[2893],{"type":104,"attrs":2894},{"href":43,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":27,"linktype":17},"Weight Stigma Resources",{"type":62,"content":2897},[2898],{"type":65,"attrs":2899,"content":2900},{"textAlign":67},[2901],{"text":2902,"type":71},"We are committed to providing safe, culturally aware, and evidence-based information to all. Here we provide healthcare professionals and community members with information on the harm of anti-fat bias, especially within the treatment of eating disorders. We are here to help you learn to advocate for your healthcare needs and support you during the process.","ContentPopupResources",{"cta":2905,"_uid":2906,"buttons":2907,"eyebrow":14,"heading":2908,"component":2909,"cta_title":14,"resources":2910,"heading_tag":2484,"heading_appearance":2484},{"id":14,"url":14,"linktype":31,"fieldtype":18,"cached_url":14},"6ef9475a-b8e0-49bb-b03c-c44c213d12f9",[],"Mental Note\u002FPodcasts","ContentRelatedResources",[2911,2958,3001,3042,3084],{"name":2912,"created_at":2913,"published_at":2914,"updated_at":2915,"id":2916,"uuid":2917,"content":2918,"slug":2948,"full_slug":2949,"sort_by_date":67,"position":2950,"tag_list":2951,"is_startpage":177,"parent_id":2953,"meta_data":67,"group_id":2954,"first_published_at":2955,"release_id":67,"lang":201,"path":67,"alternates":2956,"default_full_slug":67,"translated_slugs":67,"_stopResolving":35},"Fat in a Thin World: Weight Inclusivity","2026-02-07T19:58:00.612Z","2026-04-17T19:12:38.095Z","2026-04-17T19:12:38.116Z",142559971856551,"e196fa4a-4c6e-4a1b-aaee-d60776dd9166",{"_uid":2919,"topic":2920,"component":2921,"audio_file":2922,"conditions":2926,"meta_title":14,"podcast_id":2928,"transcript":2929,"featured_image":2930,"featured_staff":2936,"treatment_types":2941,"meta_description":14,"staff_presenters":2943,"listing_thumbnail_image":2945},"0714cfb4-11e3-43bc-9766-c9446d6ccc50","Mental Note","podcasts",["Reactive",2923],{"id":2924,"filename":2925,"fieldtype":175,"is_private":1974},"163990224877236","https:\u002F\u002Fs3.amazonaws.com\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002Fd9c69c61cc\u002Flara_jacobs_podcast_-_sp_04-07-25_mixdown_19.mp3",["Reactive",2927],[],"28134488","\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nQuiz time. What connects the prescription drug Ozempic, the viral song Richmond, North of Richmond, and the American Academy of Pediatrics? Stumped? Well, the answer is all of them made major headlines in the last year through controversial stances on fat bodies and whether or not they are acceptable in our society. This debate sparks hot takes no matter where you turn, from politicians to artists to doctors, and even to your family get-together. It can feel impossible to discuss weight in a neutral and understanding way. Yet what is often missing from these conversations is the actual lived experience of fat people. That's why we chose to record today's episode with two incredible authors, Aubrey Gordon and Kara Richardson Whitley.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nSo my name is Aubrey Gordon. I am a podcaster who co-hosts Maintenance Phase, and I have written a couple of books about being a fat lady. The most recent one is called You Just Need To Lose Weight and 19 Other Myths About Fat People. And the one before it is called What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat, because I don't do short titles.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nMy name is Kara Richardson Whiteley. I am a mental health advocate for Eating Recovery Center. I share openly about my experience with binge-eating disorder, helping to build compassion and understanding about the most common eating disorder out there. I've also written a number of books about being a fat lady, more specifically a fat lady in the wild. I wrote A Gorge: My Journey Up Kilimanjaro at 300 Pounds, which is being made into a movie with This is US actress, Chrissy Metz, producing and starring as me. And there are two other ones called The Weight of Being and Fat Woman On the Mountain. Oh, and sorry, I forgot, I'm also CEO of the Gorgeous Agency, which helps brands connect with the plus-sized audience through best practices and body inclusivity.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nToday's conversation is the perfect launching point for someone uncomfortable with fat stigma, but unsure how to understand its roots, our personal roles in it, and how we can be part of the solution. You are listening to Mental Note Podcast. I'm Ellie Pike.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Well, I feel privileged to be here with such amazing authors and speakers. I have not written any books, but I have read some of you all's books and I'm really excited to talk more with you. And so I'm just going to start off by commenting on the fact that you both referenced yourself as fat ladies. So how do you like to reference yourself when it comes to referring to your weight and your shape?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI mean, I'll say I just use fat. It feels very direct to me. It feels very descriptive to me. I get that it's not a comfortable word for everybody, so people can use whatever words they want to use to describe their own bodies. For me, the word that I use is fat because everything else, like the 'O' words, overweight and obese, and fluffy and curvy and all of that stuff feels like it's much more for the comfort of the person doing the talking than it is for the person that they're describing. And for me, the most comfortable word is just fat. Done and done.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, I also use fat as well. I also use 'in a larger body', that one only because I am often finding myself in a teaching space where I'm trying to help folks use better language when it comes to folks in diverse bodies. And so that one also comes to mind, but fat, larger, or just has a body.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThis person who has a body. So that's how you refer to yourselves. How do you like others to refer to you, or even more broadly, to folks who do live in larger bodies or for folks who are fat?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI would say again, for me, I just use fat. I just use fat and fat people. I also will use plus-sized sometimes, not because of its euphemistic characteristics, but because it attaches to a pretty clear delineation. We live in a culture that encourages most of us to think of ourselves as being 'too fat', and that makes it really hard to have conversations about people who are experiencing institutional exclusion as a result of their size, or people who are experiencing family rejection because of their size or what have you. So sometimes plus-sized can be helpful as being a way of being like, \"Hey, are you over a size 16?\" Then yes, but otherwise, probably not. So those are the ones that I use the most. But also, again, I get that people's comfort levels vary pretty widely. My main thing on that front is that folks should just be listening to the people that they're describing, rather than to their own discomfort.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, absolutely. And it's almost like I try not to get so hung up on the words, though I know that there are definitely words that cause harm, like the 'O' words as they're now called. But I try to focus so much on the intent of the word and the way it's delivered. It's like there's a difference between, \"I'm a fat person,\" to, \"You're fat.\" That's the same word, different delivery. And I think when you're wrestling with language in any space, whether it's body size or gender or race, there's some fumbling that's going to happen, but the intention is really what's more important to me overall.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWell, I really appreciate how you're both talking about folks in larger bodies or folks who are fat as a really neutral descriptor. And you're right, it takes adaptation, and especially for a lot of our culture, we've been taught being fat is bad. So why would I reference you as being fat? I am doing something wrong if I use that word. And yet I know we could make a whole episode about the 'O' words and how they're offensive, but I do think we should touch on it for just a minute here. Why are the 'O' words offensive? Why are we not referencing you with those words?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI mean, I'll kick us off.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, go for it. You can start the soapbox. No problem.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, totally. So a couple of things. One, I think folks think that because the word 'obese' is medical, that it can't be hurtful, but that to me reflects a lack of understanding of what fat people experience in doctor's offices, which is often very hurtful. For me, for example, I've had doctors who've refused to touch me, who've refused to treat me at all because of my size. That's perfectly legal. They're allowed to do that. It's not a great look, but they're allowed to. And that is the main context in which I hear people refer to me as 'obese', or worse, 'morbidly obese' or 'extremely obese'. The times that I hear that word are when I'm being denied care that I know that I need and I'm being often denied tests and screenings for more serious health issues and so on and so forth. So I think it's worth knowing that the context that many folks think of as being neutral for fat people just isn't really.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>It's also worth knowing that baked into the word itself, 'obese' derives from a Latin word that literally means 'to have eaten oneself fat'. So the idea is you've been sitting around eating so much, you made yourself so fat. There is a blame and shame angle built in to the term itself.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>And then the third thing I would say is listen, the way that we use the word 'obese' is specifically not based on our specific knowledge of someone else's BMI. It's our way of saying, \"That person is unacceptably fat. I'm okay with plus-sized people, but not if they're 'obese'.\" That is how that gets mobilized, is as a way of indicating that someone is too fat and shouldn't be out in the world, shouldn't be seen, and the rest of us shouldn't have to entertain what that person might need. It also just hurls us back into that BMI system, which is famously racist, famously misogynist, famously everything. Just touching on it. 'Just touching on it.'.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI was going to say, you did an incredible job for just touching on it. I'm like, \"Wow.\" You really summed it up so well and now we all know all the rabbit holes we can dive down and learn a lot more about. And it's ...\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Oh, go ahead, Kara.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, go.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIt's like the idea that weight and health are not linear conversations. They don't equal each other. And so it's tough when I walk in a room and people think that I'm on death's door when you look at the numbers and you know that that's not true. So numbers like blood pressure, blood sugar, all of those, cholesterol. People have a story that they make up when they see my body because of those terminologies when that may not be the truth. So your body is not always your story, and so those terms tend to box people into those narratives.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWell, I so appreciate that you talk about how loaded those words are and that they automatically assign an understanding, that it's like you're not deserving or you're doing something wrong, and that is extremely hurtful. And so I imagine for both of you, you have really interesting journeys to where you are now where you can talk about this so openly. So would you mind sharing a little bit about what it was like to grow up a fat kid in a world that really praises thinness and clearly diet culture, and just what that experience was like for each of you?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nDo you want to kick us off, buddy? I feel like I've been starting us.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThat's all right. That's all right. I've written whole books about each portion of my childhood now. Yeah, growing up as a fat kid, it was problematic for me just simply because the amount of bullying that I received, and also just that my whole childhood, I remember different ways that I was supposed to change my body and to fit into the world around me, but I never ever felt like I fit in because there weren't clothes in my size when I took my first job. When I was on the soccer team, there weren't shorts in my size. It was really challenging, not only to experience bullying and teasing, but also anything that I wanted to do, I was told, \"You don't fit.\" Soccer team, jobs, anything. And also when you look to role models, there were so few. Actually the one that I can think of the most is Oprah at the time. And I love how Aubrey calls the complicated relationship we all have with Oprah. It's so complicated that as a fat kid growing up, there weren't a lot of fat role models, people doing things and highlighted and showcased in their bodies, living fully with joy, with purpose, because those weren't in marketing and media.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>So it was a really complicated time to just feel like you fit in and also know what you're reaching and aspiring to because the only thing that you're told to reach and aspire to is thinness.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nMm-hmm. Yeah, similarly for me, I would say a lot of people carry trauma and hard feelings about their bodies and how their bodies were treated and regarded growing up. And I think what that means is often for people who don't wear plus sizes, I think they imagine that to be the sum total of issues with body image. It's sort of like, \"Oh, people have said hard things to me and that felt really hurtful,\" and that's as far as I go in the conversation about body image. Growing up as a fat kid, it wasn't just about saying mean things to me because I was a fat kid. It was about getting sent to fat camp, which is, for folks who are unfamiliar, I think pretty clearly just a way of giving kids eating disorders, and in some cases pretty clearcut abuse of kids happening in those spaces. It was about being put not only on diets, but also being put on Fen-Phen, which was a diet drug that was pulled from the market because it stopped people's hearts. It was about, as Kara mentioned, this whole idea of not fitting. Not being able to get a choir dress that fit unless you had one special made, and not being able to get a uniform size for a sports team.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>At every turn you're not only not expected, but you're not welcome. And the only way to get welcomed is to transform your body into something it has not ever been. And that is a real hard way to grow up in the world, being told that the only way that you can be accepted is if you change almost completely. I am also a queer person who worked on campaigns around conversion therapy, and I will tell you, the similarities there are often really striking. There's no evidence that that kind of transformation is really possible for most people, but there is a deep investment in making sure that people who are outside of the norm face some punitive circumstances for being outside of the norm. And that feels really bad and gross. It feels really bad and gross.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI have so many directions I could take this because there's so many pieces, but just to insert my little anecdote as we converse, I was listening to ... I want to say it was either NPR or New York Times, and it was one of their responses to AAP guidelines that had come out. And the individual who was being interviewed was the medical correspondent, and towards the end they finally started to talk about weight stigma in children. And they were like, \"But isn't weight stigma a problem?\" And she was like, \"Absolutely.\" And she kind of clarified. She said, \"And that's why supporting these kids with weight loss measures will be beneficial, so then they won't have to endure weight stigma.\" And that's exactly what you're talking about, of being queer and being told, \"You shouldn't be queer, so let's go through conversion therapy,\" because that's not stigmatizing. And so when you describe that, I'm like, \"Man, the whole fat camp mentality is not gone.\" It is still there and there is still such a medical perspective that, \"Well, stigma will decrease if you just fit into this size.\" And it's just heartbreaking to hear that you all have been through this, millions of people have been through this experience, and it continues to be really challenging.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, it sure does. And it just feels like there's this idea that we've moved past anti-fatness, or we're moving past anti-fatness or something like that, and I feel like I see that from such a dramatically different perspective than so many folks, which is essentially like I don't think we've moved past it. I think we're entrenching it more. That those APP guidelines are about giving very new drugs with very little research behind them to children. To actual children. It's about giving weight loss surgery to preteens. It is rough out there. Those are big dramatic decisions to make with children's health. And again, it feels like rather than we're moving past it, it feels like we're regressing real hard right now.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nRight. 100%. Because when I think about the kinds of campaigns that are going on right now, and I also think about my own childhood, when I was 12 years old, I was sexually assaulted and that's when my binge-eating disorder kicked into high gear. I wasn't really just snacking here and there. I was in a legitimate eating disorder. Meanwhile, I have lipedema and I didn't know it. I didn't even know it until two years ago. And so I've had [inaudible 00:18:18] surgery and it didn't do much, and I've had weight loss drugs over the years. I had Meridia, I had all these different interventions, the powders, the pills, the programs, and none of them really made a dent in my body. Or if they did, it was temporary and it just came back with a vengeance. So when I think about how this is some campaign that promises to change the trajectory, well, what are we not considering? What's going on in each individual child's life? Maybe they're just a fat kid.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, totally.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nMaybe this is just their body and it's not going to react in a way ... but the promises of those campaigns are just so problematic.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWell, and also when do we ever respond to stigma or bullying or in any way punching down with, \"Hm, the people who are getting punched are probably the ones who need to do the changing, rather than the people doing the punching.\" It's very strange to me, particularly with the AAP guidelines, that there is this acknowledgement of weight stigma, there is this acknowledgement of anti-fatness, and there is zero plan to do anything about it. There are no action steps about how weight stigma is going to be combated aside from, as you noted, just make fat kids thin and then the stigma ceases to exist, which no, it does not. And also, how would that happen, team? Scientifically, where are we going with that? How's that going to be delivered?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThat's right. We need a project manager for that.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAction steps.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAnd I should probably clarify for our listeners what the APP is. And so it's the Academy of American Pediatrics, meaning the governing body of who decides what the best practice is for pediatric care. So in the last ... what was it? I don't know, seven months ago? They came out with a more anti-fat, very restrictive diet and medication approach to weight loss. There we go. So Kara and Aubrey, when did you in your childhood or teen or early adult journey start to question the messages you were getting, that you must be thin, you must change your body to fit into a different mold and to be accepted?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI would say for me, my first girlfriend was a fat activist adjacent lady, and she would take me to see things like there was a radical fat cheerleading troupe in Portland, and she'd be like, \"We're going to see the fat cheerleaders. We're going to go do this and we're going to read these books and we're going to dah, dah, dah,\" and all of that sort of stuff. And it was too soon for me and it made me really uncomfortable.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>And then a couple of years later, I think my own disordered eating and relationship to diets just reached a breaking point, and I just decided to give myself a 'break' from dieting, to just be like, \"I'm just going to not worry about that for a little bit,\" and a little bit turned into a long bit. And I think the nail in the coffin in as much as that exists for folks, because diet culture and anti-fatness are still all around us all the time, so it's not like we get to just step out of it, but the closest I get to a nail in the coffin was actually starting to research diets and anti-fatness and treatment of fat people and all of that kind of stuff. Because as soon as you start looking into it, it all just falls apart really quickly. As soon as you start looking for, say, primary source studies in peer reviewed journals about what delivers weight loss for most people in the longterm most of the time, it doesn't exist, buddy. They got nothing. They're coming up blank.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>As soon as you start looking into what are the effects of discrimination on fat people and what are some solutions to that, again, a lot of things start to snap into focus. You start to see that actually when people experience discrimination, their blood pressure goes up. Oh, interesting. Interesting and a thing that maybe we should consider when we're talking about hypertension in fat people. There is just all of that information that I thought would cut against me as a fat person because that's how we talk about this stuff as we mobilize science as a way of silencing fat people, as I dug into it, I found that it was quite the opposite and that quite a bit of the data actually cut in fat folks' favor and was in defense of fat people in some pretty big ways. And that felt really, really helpful to me.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah. And I think for me, maybe this generation is going to learn sooner, but for me it was definitely wildly into adulthood, even solidly into my 30s, because that's when I was about to turn 30 ... I was about to turn 30, that's what it was, when I started to get these adventure travel catalogs in the mail, and I realized that I kept saying to myself that, \"I'm going to do that when I lose weight.\" I'd see these pictures of Machu Picchu, Kilimanjaro and the Alps, and I realized that everything was followed by that clause. \"I'll get some new clothes when I lose weight.\" \"I'll see the doctors when I lose weight.\" \"I'll go on this adventure when I lose weight.\" And that moment of getting an adventure travel catalog and realizing like, \"Whoa, wait a minute. What if I just went on a hike here in New Jersey, and it's a tiny one? That's okay. What if I started to take up some space in the places I really want to be in and I want to explore?\" And so that was really the first step.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>But diet culture has this way of ... the only thing I can envision right now is the waves of a sea. You're riding on a boat in the sea and sometimes you're in control of the tide and sometimes the tide can pull you back in. And so it's been a journey back and forth, but I do remember a doctor that I had who was very just nonjudgmental of me. I think I was asking for something, I don't know if it was a pill, a program, a prescription of some kind, and she just said to me like, \"Listen, Kara. I've seen you for eight years and your weight has always been around this number and you're okay. All the numbers that I care about are great. So I don't know much about this,\" whatever it was I was asking about, \"But I do know this about your body and I think you're okay.\" And so that was one of those moments that was like, \"My gosh, maybe I am.\" And so there are lots of stops on that journey of just trying to figure out, \"Maybe I don't need diet culture or thinness in my life to exist and do the things that I really want to do.\"\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWell, I appreciate both of your perspectives, and the analogy you brought of the tide where you get pulled out and back in, the journey is not linear at all, and yet you all are here and you're such advocates for inclusion and really speaking up and providing education. So I'm wondering, in your own personal journeys, what are you aiming for? What impact do you hope that you could have on this space?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThat's a big question. Kara, I don't know if you have an answer ready to go?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAll right. All right. Well, we'll have to divide the task in half and you take half of it and I'll-\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nTotally. Great. Love it. Excellent.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nBecause it's a huge question and it's a huge ask, because there is so much work to be done in this space, from weight not being a protected class, there's so much work to be done from the discrimination point of view. But where my skillset is and where my expertise is is helping to change the narrative and the imagery and the perception for folks that all bodies are welcome in spaces. And whether that's the fitness space, the travel space, the apparel space, helping companies articulate that better and understand not only the moral case for it, but the business case for it. Because in the work that I do through the Gorgeous Agency, 67% of US women are a size 14 and above. So why are only 12% of garments made in plus sizes? The math right now does not add up. And so that's where I'm focusing my effort because that's where my skillset really is.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>And of course, to continue telling my story about climbing Kilimanjaro and having that platform and just being a role model so that other people's adventures can feel like a reality ... And believe me, not everybody wants to climb Kilimanjaro eight days without a shower. It's just really not for everybody. But-\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIt's not for me. I'll tell you that.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nRight. Who knows what someone else's Kilimanjaro will be, right? Who knows? Is it walking around the block and not being terrified that a middle schooler's going to yell something out of a car? Or it doesn't even have to be a middle schooler. It could be just a regular adult human being that feels permission to yell out something ridiculous when someone's taking a walk. So if my platform, my story, the things that I do in the adventure space helps someone else to make a decision to do something that brings them joyful movement or joyful feelings, then my work is not done, but it's working.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIt's impactful.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThat was a good answer. You had a good answer ready.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nNow you do the rest.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah. I think Kara noted it is perfectly legal in 48 states to fire someone or deny them housing or deny them a table in a restaurant or a room in a hotel just because you think they're too fat. We have a long way to go. It is perfectly legal for doctors in many states to deny care to fat people because they think they're too fat. There's a lot of work to do there. There are issues in doctor's offices about the equipment that they have. Do they have exam tables that will hold fat people? Do they have scales that will measure us if they're going to insist on weighing us? Do they even have equipment that will weigh us? There is an issue with blood pressure cuffs. A lot of folks don't necessarily know this, that most blood pressure cuffs are built around the idea of a thin person's arm, so they are cylindrical. If a cylindrical cuff is put on a fat person, it will give them an artificially high reading on their blood pressure. There is another kind, which is a conical cuff, which makes space for fat people's arms. They can be used on thin people with perfect accuracy, so great, and they're accurate on fat people, but those are not as common as the cylindrical ones.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>So there are just all of these things that we can do; in schools, having seats that are attached to desks at a fixed width. There are things that all of us can do from wherever we are with whatever power we have to functionally make the world more welcoming to fat people. And that doesn't stop at not using slurs or not being the person who yells at somebody when they're on a walk, to Kara's point.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>I think there are two other effects that I hope to have for folks. One is exposing the scaffolding that has been the source code for a lot of our deepest anti-fat beliefs. We have been told that those are hard and fast science, and often they are the furthest thing from hard and fast science. That feels really important to me, that folks start to think of the diet industry like they think of big tobacco, like they think of vaping companies, like they think of the worst players in our economy, because I think the diet industry is one of the worst players in our economy, one of the most disingenuous and one of the most profit-hungry and all kinds of stuff.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>And then I think the last thing for me that feels really important is anytime we're talking about structural issues of inequality, anytime we're talking about systems of oppression and marginalization, we have this conversation that's like, \"Man, some people out there somewhere are really mean to fat people, and I don't know who they are, but they should knock it off,\" in this way that is completely absolving ourselves of any role of upholding those same systems.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>So the other impact that I hope to have through this work, and question mark on effectiveness, we'll see, is getting folks to understand that in big ways and small ways, all of us are capable of being the villain in that story, just as much as we're all capable of being the target of villainy in that story. That we are much more likely to hang on to our stories of how we were hurt by anti-fatness than by acknowledging when we have been part of upholding anti-fatness and working on that. And that's true for fat people about people who are fatter than us. It's true of thin people. Regardless of size, all of us are capable of anti-fatness, and that feels like a really, really important message for folks to get, to stop looking outward for find the fat phobe and start looking inward to, \"Wait a minute. Where do my practices not totally match up to my values? Where might I have done this?\" Without blame and shame, because that's not really helping, but just doing an honest inventory of, \"Where can I show up differently and in a stronger way for fat people?\" It feels like a really important set of questions that I would love for people to spend a little time doing a little soul-searching on.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAubrey, we were talking about effectiveness, and I would have to say that your exposing the scaffolding on the diet industry has been, I'd say, unlocking the next level of my understanding of my body and history with food and body.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWow.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nNo, seriously.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThanks, buddy.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYou're welcome.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThat's great.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWhen I listen to the Maintenance Phase and I hear, Oh yeah, French women don't get fat. That's like a recipe for an eating disorder.\" I'm like, \"Right. I thought I should have just liked the leek soup. Why did I not like it? Oh, because I was hangry.\" And so when you start to unpack that for people, myself included, and all the many grateful listeners of the podcast, it's just such a gift, because it truly does, it allows you to revisit something and reexamine in a way that's something that you always thought was true. And it's so important to do that in the world of diet culture because we're talking about things that everybody has always assumed was true. Your work is just so powerful and meaningful to me personally, and I know to so many other people.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nOh buddy, that is so kind. I will say, it's a very fun thing about making the show that I also get to get my mind blown through the process of making the show. I will absolutely never forget sitting down to record an episode with Mike where he had researched the President's physical fitness test, and I absolutely thought that that was standardized from state to state, that the data was going somewhere and doing something, and that the public policy was there with benchmarks that we were all aiming toward or whatever. None of those things were true. Dwight Eisenhower just thought we needed military-ready children.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWhich I am not.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nNo. Not one time in my life have I been military-ready. Never.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nRight.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI just need to know how long you ...\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>No, no, go ahead.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nOh, I was just going to say, that's so incredibly kind of you, and I'm so, so glad that that is having that impact for you, bud. I appreciate it.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nOh, my pleasure. I appreciate you.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWell, I just have to know how long you research for each episode, because to truly expose the scaffolding and to simplify it the way that you do, it takes a lot of background knowledge, and then you're creating the Cliff Notes for all of us. So I'm just curious.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, totally. So I think depending on the topic ... on really, really gnarly ones, we'll spend a month. On most of our episodes, I would say it's about two weeks of research for each of us and then a week-ish of editing and writing and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's a labor-intensive little process to get it right.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIt is. Well, we appreciate you, because someone needs to be digging in and providing us all the right information. So thank you so much for that.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nSure. Appreciate it.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nSo as we wrap up, I'm curious your take on how can folks become allies?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah. For me it feels really, really simple, which is get curious about what people in your life who are fatter than you need. Ask them what they need, ask them how they need you to show up, and then do those things. If you have a classmate who is a fat person who is like, \"Actually, yeah, the desks in this classroom are really, really hard for me,\" or, \"This professor in our class keeps using 'the obesity epidemic' as their go-to example of a public health crisis or whatever. Could you talk to them about it? That would be really helpful.\" Just ask people what they need and then do those things. I think it's easy to get overwhelmed by the complexity of getting to know a community that's new to you or a community that you haven't explored a lot. And I think it can be really helpful in those times when it feels really overwhelming to remind ourselves that it really is just how do you be a decent person to each other? Do you know what I mean? It really does not have to be complicated. It really can be as simple as, \"What do you need? How can I help?\" That's it. And that's a thing that many, many, many people just don't do with fat people, just check in and see if we have what we need.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, it's so true. I'd say that one of the most beautiful moments I've had this summer was when we were in Europe, we visited our previous au pairs. Most of them are in France, and two of them were together with us in Lyons, and we went to a restaurant. And for those of you who visit France, you probably know it's not very fat-friendly. So we went into a restaurant and the two of them just went ahead of me, got a chair without arms and put it in the place that I was sitting without me asking for it. And I never said anything to them about it, but if you're listening now, that was really powerful, that they know me. They lived in my house for a year. They know what my needs are. And so I didn't need to ask. They just immediately took care of me in that scenario, because they knew I would be uncomfortable for the whole beautiful lunch that we were about to have in Lyons. And so it was such a simple gesture, and those simple gestures, just like Aubrey said, are just so powerful.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThat's huge. I love that story. That's so great. Tuning into seating, it's a cut above. It's not just, \"I'm going to defend you if I hear someone say something.\" It's like, \"I'm going to anticipate. I know that this is going to be a challenge for you, and I want you to feel comfortable here like I feel comfortable here. How do I make that happen?\" That's awesome.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nLike, \"I just want you to have a beautiful experience.\" It's almost like, \"I want you to, A, have a seat at the table, and B, just really enjoy it.\" And so it was such a beautiful, beautiful experience.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI have one larger and quicker thing that people can do, which is the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance, NAAFA, is working on a campaign to end anti-fat discrimination. They just passed an ordinance in New York City to ban anti-fat discrimination in New York. That's a huge deal, and they are cooking with gas. They are ready to move on to their next state or municipality. So folks should go to their website and sign up to volunteer to donate and just to stay in the loop, because if and as it comes to your town, you want to be able to write to your city council member, you want to be able to write to your state legislature and make sure that fat folks in your community are protected from really baseline, really overt discrimination.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI appreciate an actionable item, and I just wrote that down, so I will be first to do that today. Thank you so much for that idea. So for the rest of our listeners too, who are like, \"Okay, so I need to dig in. I need to learn more about anti-fat bias. I need to assess my own biases.\" Just keep learning, keep this as a conversation. Clearly we're going to be reading you all's books and listening to Maintenance Phase. What are some other resources that you recommend to folks that you believe are credible? That's an important word there.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI'll say I have a couple of particular favorites to recommend in this realm. One is a book that just came out a few months ago called Fat Talk by Victoria Sole-Smith. That is looking at the 'childhood obesity epidemic' and parenting around anti-fatness. So if folks are parents, that is an extremely information dense, but also instructive book on not just how to parent fat kids, but how to parent all kids in a way that respects different kinds of bodies and that sort of thing.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>So that's thing one. And thing two I would say is Da'Shaun Harrison has a book called Belly of the Beast that is about the relationship between anti-fatness and anti-blackness. That is absolutely stellar, and I can't recommend it strongly enough. Those are both really, really, really strong pieces of analysis and really foundational and should be foundational to folks' understanding of how anti-fatness operates.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI also echo the Fat Talk. That's my summer reading.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Aubrey Gordon:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIt's a good one, right?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kara Richardson Whitley:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAnd it's fun to see you quoted so often in that. I'm like, \"Yeah.\" I know that it's supposed to be other than Maintenance Phase, but that is one of the things that deconstructs things for me. And then to vibe on the entertainment space, I think that it's important, just as you go through the world, and especially because we're in the midst of making a movie, it's important to just continue examining in your own mind as you watch things, like the portrayal of people, from The Whale to anything on TV. Who are the characters? Who are the people? How are they being portrayed? And then start to support projects that make a difference and show body diversity in an empowering way versus just to push people down.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Eleanor Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI am so grateful to Kara and Aubrey for sharing honestly about their experiences today. I hope their candor helped open your mind to critically thinking about weight bias and its profound consequences. The good news is that you and I can do something about it. A great place to start is by going to the website of the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance and sign their Size Freedom petition. You can find it at naafa.org\u002Fsizefreedom. We will also list the books Aubrey mentioned in our show notes, and don't forget to check out Aubrey and Kara's websites on our show notes as well.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>And finally, I am so proud to highlight our friends at the nonprofit Project Heal. They are doing incredible work bridging healthcare gaps created by lack of finances, insurance, systemic oppression and bias. From free assessments to expert insurance support to free treatment, Project Heal's services are designed for those our current healthcare system is failing. For more information about Project Heal's services or to sign up for support, go to theprojectheal.org. Thank you for listening to Mental Note Podcast. Our show is brought to you by Eating Recovery Center and Pathlight Mood and Anxiety Center. If you'd like to talk to a trained therapist to see if in-person or virtual treatment is right for you, please call them at (877) 850-7199. If you need a free support group, check out eatingrecovery.com\u002Fsupport-groups. Also, keep a lookout for an unlearning fat stigma workshop Eating Recovery Center will be putting out in early 2024. Signups should come out later this fall.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>If you like our show, sign up for our e-newsletter and learn more about the people we interview at mentalnotepodcast.com. We'd also love it if you left us a review on iTunes. It helps others find our podcast. Mental Note is produced and hosted by me, Ellie Pike, and directed and edited by Sam Pike. Till next time.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n",["Reactive",2931],{"id":2932,"alt":14,"name":14,"focus":2933,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":2934,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":2935,"is_external_url":177},150628513799327,"552x346:553x347","https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F1100x733\u002F627e1b1c98\u002Faubrey-gordon.jpg",{"alt":14,"title":14,"source":14,"copyright":14},["Reactive",2937],{"0":2938,"1":2939,"2":2940},"bcfaecc3-f31b-4e04-b1cf-6b6fb7808f66","ec0bc223-b123-4416-9cf7-e230b34db155","aa9e8a13-485e-409c-82ff-924c3e3ffac9",["Reactive",2942],[],["Reactive",2944],[],["Reactive",2946],{"id":67,"alt":67,"name":14,"focus":67,"title":67,"source":67,"filename":14,"copyright":67,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":2947},{},"fat-thin-world-weight-inclusivity","mental-note-podcast\u002Ffat-thin-world-weight-inclusivity",-860,["Reactive",2952],[],142538963901155,"9f4b49d3-50ed-43ea-9845-fc30975dab58","2023-09-25T22:20:50.000Z",["Reactive",2957],[],{"name":2959,"created_at":2960,"published_at":2961,"updated_at":2962,"id":2963,"uuid":2964,"content":2965,"slug":2992,"full_slug":2993,"sort_by_date":67,"position":2994,"tag_list":2995,"is_startpage":177,"parent_id":2953,"meta_data":67,"group_id":2997,"first_published_at":2998,"release_id":67,"lang":201,"path":67,"alternates":2999,"default_full_slug":67,"translated_slugs":67,"_stopResolving":35},"Can Exercise Be Fat Positive and Joyful?","2026-02-07T19:45:24.193Z","2026-04-24T16:07:42.716Z","2026-04-24T16:07:42.743Z",142556873547909,"7d64c22c-6b96-422d-ad11-cb2aae501394",{"_uid":2966,"topic":2920,"component":2921,"audio_file":2967,"conditions":2971,"meta_title":14,"podcast_id":2973,"transcript":2974,"featured_image":2975,"featured_staff":2981,"treatment_types":2985,"meta_description":14,"staff_presenters":2987,"listing_thumbnail_image":2989},"17776330-0744-4d0c-9088-2b0b6f796795",["Reactive",2968],{"id":2969,"filename":2970,"fieldtype":175,"is_private":1974},"163991972919330","https:\u002F\u002Fs3.amazonaws.com\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002Fe310505e40\u002F46_-_kim_gould_podcast_mixdown.mp3",["Reactive",2972],[],"19365245","\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWhen therapist, Kim Gould Fry, decided to open a size inclusive exercise studio, she had no idea that three months later, the whole world would be enveloped by the COVID-19 pandemic.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nHi, my name is Kim Gould Fry, like a French fry. And I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm a certified barre instructor and a certified personal trainer, and I specialize in the treatment of eating disorders, body image issues, and compulsive exercise. I opened Autonomy in November 2019, and then COVID hit. Several months later, we had to go into lockdown and it ended up being in a lot of ways of blessing in disguise.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThe adversity actually aided Kim in perfecting her mission to restore people's relationships with their bodies and introduce them to intuitive movement.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAnd we got just flooded with requests for accessible mental healthcare, sharing our values. And I ended up needing to really turn my attention towards growing the mental health aspect of the business.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAfter passing the gym over to the instructors she helped train, Kim doubled down on creating mental health resources for people of all sizes to enjoy movement.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIt has been just a very vertical learning curve.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThis leap into the unknown has already made a big impact. She runs one of the only group practices of its kind in Austin, Texas, created a free online guide to enjoying exercise, and helps train instructors in large bodies in facilitating group classes in launching their own businesses. What a year. Today, we're talking with Kim and one of the instructors she trained about what it means to reconnect with our bodies while discovering the joy of exercise outside of fat shaming and diet culture. You're listening to Mental Note podcast. I'm Ellie Pike. Kim, thank you so much for joining this podcast. I'm really excited to dive into the topic of movement and what that can look like for all of us. And really some myths and some facts around movement, how to do it and how to enjoy it along the way. Just explain in layman's terms what restoring your relationship with your body is and what intuitive movement is.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI'll start just by naming what intuitive movement is, if that would be helpful. It's the process of checking in with your body, assessing how much energy you have, how you're feeling, what your body might be craving movement-wise, and then using all of that to determine the type of movement that you do, the duration of movement that you're doing. And when I say movement, if that sounds like sort of just aimlessly waving your body around, it could be that interpretive dancing, I suppose, but it is really meant to describe just any type of movement in our body, whether that is a sort of standard exercise like spinning, or doing a barre class, or jumping on a trampoline, all the way to simply walking your dog. All of that is what's encompassed an intuitive movement, just to name a handful of things. And then when you're finding that you're engaging in the movement, it doesn't stop there. Staying really present in your body and continuing to ask those questions of, \"Do I want to keep moving for an additional 10 minutes? Did I choose to go running? And ultimately, I'm noticing my body is tired and I want to start walking.\" Continuing to stay really present in your body and flexibility being a huge component of that. So I would say the main things to be attentive to when it comes to intuitive movement are curiosity, and intentionality, and compassion. So being really mindful of how your body is feeling and then noticing when a part of you might be demanding you engage in something more rigorous, because that's typically not super authentic. It's likely a part of us that we've internalized from what's known as diet culture.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI know that the concept of exercise and movement can be really loaded for a lot of people. A lot of people maybe have been told to use it to lose weight, or they've had a negative relationship, maybe overused it as part of a disorder. And so how can someone know what those limits are for themselves and what's appropriate types of movement for themselves?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, sure. We do have a free resource on the homepage of our website. If you go to autonomytherapyatx.com and scroll down, it's called The Essential Guide to Enjoying Exercise, that has some quick tools to be actively assessing and learning more about someone's existing relationship with movement. It's with the intention to help folks really start being honest with themselves about where they're starting from. It's not as easy as just saying, \"Okay, I want to start moving intuitively.\" First, we need to know what is your current relationship with exercise? Because we don't know what we don't know. I dedicated the past few years of my life and my career to this concept and these values. And I remember that starting out, it was as simple as just being curious and asking myself, \"Well, does exercise actually help you lose weight?\" Because at the time, years ago, that's what I was using it for and that's what I had been told. So it was this spark of inspiration, if you will, that led me to just start researching, and Googling around, and asking colleagues what they knew about it, and that's why I developed these tools. And so there's some scaling questions and some true, false things, kind of challenging existing myths. Those that have done any type of psychology class or a therapist themselves may know the name, Jean Piaget, who back in the 1960s, identified that there was a need to break up old mental patterns before you can absorb or learn anything new. And so that's part of the reason that I take this approach, is because I could be offering a ton of new information about intuitive movement and how exercise is authentically beneficial for someone's health, and yet if we're not challenging all the other information that they may have already internalized, that's not really going to matter because that person may still be using exercise to lose weight and maybe engaging in harmful behaviors without even being aware of it. So before actually moving, we need to get a good sense of what is someone's relationship with their body and with exercise, and really what narratives are informing that.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nEverything that you said just makes so much sense, and it really ties back to your goal and what you're doing of helping people restore relationship with their bodies. And a lot of us don't even know exactly what that could look like. Can you help us put a picture to it?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nSure. I think I might have to give you a bit of a therapist-y answer up front, which is I think it just really depends for each person what that looks like. There's no one-size-fits-all model of what someone enjoys when it comes to movement. For example, I have an identical twin sister, and she loves to get up early and go spinning and loves being on the beat. My legs just don't move that fast, first of all, and I also don't enjoy being in a dark room with super loud music. I get way over stimulated too quickly, and so it kind of just starts getting to know yourself thinking back to even growing up. Do you remember what you enjoyed doing growing up and how you enjoyed moving? What brought you excitement and pure pleasure when it came to just moving your body before you had all these instructors, or fitstagrams, or coaches telling you what you had to do with your body? Before the competition of the game outweighed the actual joy of it? And so I think just, again, starting to make a mind, body connection there because it's really easy to get stuck in our own heads and say, \"Okay, well, I'm supposed to do 150 minutes of moderate aerobic activity a week, and that's what the standards are for health.\" And yet that doesn't really actually apply authentically to anyone. It's this just generic number, generic statistics. And so what I like to do is think about what I have the most fun doing when I'm not sitting in one place. For example, I think I said this earlier, I love rollerblading. I think it's hysterical. I have so much fun. I love chasing my cat around the living room. I love going to petting zoos and flitting around from goat to baby goat to baby sheep, and that is all movement. And I also know that I love movement diversity, so I will maybe one day stretch my body and do some yoga. The next day, maybe I will go on a walk with my husband or attempt jogging. I wouldn't say that's at the top of my list, running or jogging, but sometimes. Again, with that intuitive movement recommendation of continuing to check in with your body, maybe I get a burst of energy and it would feel good to jog so many paces ahead. I think it's just being really open to the idea that once you start challenging those diet culture messages about what movement has to look like to be healthy and breaking up those narratives, it really allows more space to then incorporate some more play, pleasure, and fun.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI think that this is so wonderful, and those are fantastic examples of rollerblading. I know for me, I've been jumping on the trampoline with my daughter, which is a little less fun when you're seven months pregnant.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI'm pretty sure. Yeah, I can't relate, but I can imagine.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nRight, but it does bring me so much joy to jump around, jump around, and then fall on the trampoline, and then get back up and I'm winded. I'm totally out of breath, and it brings me back to exactly that childhood play that you just described. And I think a lot of us can tune in into what movement can look like for us in a joyful way when we think back to our childhood. I really appreciate the perspective that you bring to revitalizing our relationship with our body and really just enjoying what our body can do for us.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAbsolutely.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nMy next question is really about your personal experience. You've launched so much in the last few years, and I'm sure you have lots of lessons learned, but I know that you shared with me in our first conversation about a really important lesson about making sure that you get to create a space to let marginalized bodies join in the conversation, and join in movement, and lead in this movement. Can you share a little bit about that?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYes. Again, that learning curve, I feel like is very consistently vertical. I've learned so much, and have made and will confidently continue to make an abundance [inaudible 00:12:18] in an attempt to actively support and create space for marginalized bodies and voices. And I thought that I needed to use my privilege to create all of those spaces when in reality, I saw so much more community support and felt so much more confident in the actual movement itself that was happening, like social justice movement, when I equipped others with the knowledge and the resources to advocate for themselves rather than me, myself, sort of take on that role of, \"Well, I can be the one to offer it all.\" And I am so glad that I was able to recognize that because I do have an abundance of privilege in so many ways. And in order to be the best ally that I possibly can, I have to consistently be asking myself, how do I be creating this space for others to equip them with the information and to be providing this information too, to other folks that want to be allies so that they're not asking these populations that are already marginalized to be educating them? The more education that I, with my privilege, can be offering to other folks with privilege too, I feel the better.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAnd what are those privileges that you find that you have?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI am Caucasian, so I have white privilege. I am heterosexual, cisgender. I have socioeconomic privilege, thin privilege in body size. I would say I check a lot of boxes.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah. And it seems like you've really created space for people of all body sizes to really join in the conversation and start to lead in really taking up space in the community and even on social media. We'll talk with Natalie, a friend of yours, that you've really worked with.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Natalie Sanders:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI met Kim when she was opening the Autonomy Movement space in 2019, and just couldn't not even believe that there was going to be this focus on body positivity in a gym setting in my hometown of Austin.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nMeet Natalie Sanders.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Natalie Sanders:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nMy name is Natalie Sanders, and I am a body positive barre instructor. I launched my own business this year called Body Positive Barre, which you can check out at bodyposibarre.com. I believe that movement spaces should be inclusive to as many different body types as possible, and that people should have the right to feel safe and welcome in all movement spaces. After getting to know Kim a little bit more, she approached me and said, \"Hey, I'd really like to teach some folks in bigger bodies how to teach barre.\" I've been taking some of her barre classes and really enjoying them, and just found that it was... I kind of expressed to her like, \"Hey, I would love to be a fitness instructor one day. This just seems really cool.\" And then it just starts kind of [inaudible 00:15:34]. She's like, \"I'd love to train you,\" and so we did all of our training. It was right when COVID hit, so we did it all virtually, and then got to do some practice classes where Kim would come and give some feedback. And then just this year, I launched my own business. However, we still work together on funneling clients back and forth and just promoting each other's materials, and resources, and classes that are being offered.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nCan you tell us a little bit about what this experience has been like for you to move into this body positive space as well as teaching barre?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Natalie Sanders:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI think entering into this space, specifically around movement and fitness, has been really interesting. And we see a lot of folks adopting this use of body positive and, \"Hey, I offer an inclusive class, everyone's welcome.\" But at some point too, I think it's really important to have representation and making sure that we actually have more fat fitness instructors out there to make it an even more welcoming and inviting place, because the instructor then is teaching and moving in a place of experience. There's only so much that education can do in life that fitness instructors everywhere should be educating themselves, being as flexible as possible. There's also something more about learning from the source, right? Learning from the people that experienced... Just existing in that body type.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAnd in my conversations with Kim, one of the lessons that she learned was how important it was to uplift marginalized bodies and exactly what you're saying, making sure that there are fat bodies being represented in this space, but also leading this body positive and fat positive movement. You identify, correct, as living in a fat body and being one of those marginalized bodies? What is that experience like for you and how do you lead the charge?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Natalie Sanders:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah. I grew up in a pretty lucky situation where I had a lot of support around me. I had access to great healthcare and a really loving family, and was really lucky to have parents growing up that didn't put a lot of pressure on weight loss or really even appearance in general. It was more about how we're feeling, what our moods are, are we having fun? And I think that that really has translated into me being able to be okay as a fat person in our society now, but I think there's a lot of folks who are in fat bodies who don't have access to that, specifically some of my friends and colleagues. And I think it's a shame because when we don't have access to those things, it's really hard to just exist. But specifically for me, having some representation as an early user of Instagram, following other fat creators, fat fitness folks, fat fashion folks, and just seeing other people just living unapologetically, and being in their own bodies, and being proud of who they are really paved the way to help shape myself being so confident or just feeling like, \"Hey, I can be a part of this too and I hope to really help others.\" And it's been great to bring that into fitness where I think we're just a little bit farther behind, but it's been great to just be like, \"Hey, I can do this and you can do this too,\" to so many strangers now on the internet that I can connect with and it's been really special.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI imagine a lot of people pop into your classes feeling this sense of exhaustion from what the concept of exercise has meant to them. A lot of weight loss being pushed or sculpting and just goals for achieving this certain kind of body. And so what you're offering is something completely different which is really embracing the body you're in, and feeling good, and able, and moving because you want to because it's joyful. What are some tips and skills that you give your group members and your clients to really help them along this journey?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Natalie Sanders:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah. One thing that's been really great with virtual moving is that we don't have to show up in the classroom and have the fear of being watched or maybe even watching yourself in the mirror, which can be a little bit triggering. So instead when we move virtually, you have the option to keep your camera off. You're not even looking at yourself at all, which might be part of the trip of movement and move being joyfully without some of this negative thoughts that tend to creep up in our minds. I think something too, I always make a point to work out in just my sports bra and leggings just to normalize showing people that you can work out in whatever you would like, but I do think it's important for representation to just be like, \"Here I am in my body teaching this way, in this outfit.\" But I do think it's important to wear whatever makes you comfortable. It can be just a ragged, old t-shirt and some shorts, or you have the option to work out naked if you'd want with your camera off.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThat's fantastic.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Natalie Sanders:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIt might be a little wild and [inaudible 00:20:52], but just making sure that you're super comfortable in your space and in your outfit, and you don't have to then think about your appearance. It's just all about the movement. I don't use any language that's going to be like, \"We're tightening and toning over here and we're lengthening.\" And really, I'm all about, \"Do you feel your muscle group or your muscle that I'm feeling turned on? Then that's enough.\" In barre, we preach up an inch, down an inch. Really just moving a tiny bit and making sure that you can feel that muscle activated. And that was more about them reaching really long or getting your leg up really high. It's really, \"Do you feel your muscle? That's it. That's all you need to worry about. Do you feel it getting fatigued as we work it?\" I also cue a ton of like, \"Take a water break, you need it, or you don't have to do this entire set. Do as many as you would like. Take a break and then come back.\" And I also grabbed this little sentence from one of my colleagues too of, \"We are not a dance troupe. We don't all have to move together. You can move at your own pace. You don't have to match me, right? You can do less or more, faster or slower.\" I think we get really caught up in like, \"Am I following the instructor?\" During a workout class. It's okay if you're not. We don't all have to move the same, and just making that known over and over again during class by cuing that too.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nJust as Natalie is hard at work creating movements where all people feel welcome, Kim has been developing the education necessary to get people's minds ready for intuitive movement.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIn the '70s, Kazimierz Dabrowski coined the term positive disintegration, which is that similar idea of, \"In order to learn anything new, we have to go through this really uncomfortable process of challenging and breaking down old beliefs and mental patterns in order to effectively incorporate new information.\" And so I have since rebranded the course, the Intuitive Movement Masterclass, and yet that was really its origins was this focus on what you don't know, you don't know. And what I needed years and years ago to really start challenging the idea that first and foremost, exercise helps you lose weight because a lot of the information that we've been fed about exercise, and health, and weight loss has been from companies that make money off of us buying into it. It's not because those things are actually true. Truth is exercise isn't statistically significant for weight loss. Research does show that regardless of how many Cosmopolitan GQ or fitstagrams come out and disagree with me. Exercise can be a tool used to benefit health without a doubt. There's so many positive benefits that come from exercise, and it may be that as a result of exercising and increasing someone's energy expenditure, that someone who had been pretty sedentary before that a symptom of that is that their weight decreases. But ultimately, if that does happen, it just means that someone's set point, which is the weight range at which our body performs optimally and is predominantly determined by genetics, their set point was probably lower. Along with that, I hear this calories in equals calories out. That's like a lot of gym language, and that's just not true either. This idea that you can eat something and then immediately go, to put this in air quotes, \"Burn it off,\" is not true. That sweating means you're working harder. There was a study done that compared controlled participants that did both a hot yoga class and a regular yoga class, and there's so many gyms and fitness studios now advertising hot yoga, hot barre, and they claim, \"This torches calories and transform your body,\" and that's just not true. And then what the research shows too and what we know is that sweat is just your body's way of trying to maintain homeostasis. It's trying to cool your body off and sweating is impacted by the environment outside, what you're wearing, your actual sweat glands, if you had caffeine that day. It doesn't mean that you're torching calories. That if you work out really intensely or for a really long duration time, that it just means you're going to keep burning calories. That's also not true. After a while, your body actually will adapt to whatever movement you're doing, because if there was a linear association between length of time that you're moving and the amount of calories or energy that you're using, you could stay on the treadmill for five hours and you would die. Our body is primed for survival, not diet culture aesthetics or expectations.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAnd what about the concept of taking rest, right? What if you just don't want to move? Is that okay?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAbsolutely. Our body needs rest days, and I go into that in more detail in the course too. It's so interesting that when I talk to a client who's compulsively exercising or insisting that they have to do some type of movement every single day, and I challenge that and I say, \"Well, contrary to that, our body actually just physiologically needs rest or else it can't repair itself.\" Most clients logically agree with me. I would say 99% of clients kind of do a begrudging like, \"Ugh, I know. I know.\" And yet that doesn't matter if I share that. I'm sure even people listening would be like, \"Oh, yeah. I know that logically. I'm not going to do it,\" because all of the other stuff is still getting in the way. And so it is less important to simply name the myths than it is to say, \"Okay, if this is a myth and there's parts of me that I'm recognizing are resistant to that, or don't fully believe it, or want to find reasons to not integrate that into my life and adjust my behavior because of that, I need to be more curious about, one, what is that part of me that keeps disagreeing, getting in the way? What are those narratives that I have that are keeping this room feeling really authentic?\" And then once you're taking that dive too. Being able to right after say, \"Okay, and then what other information or education would I need to really make that feel true?\" Okay. If rest days are better, one, I need to explore the parts of me that don't believe that, or feel like that's not true, or afraid of what would happen if I did take that rest day whilst simultaneously or subsequently I suppose, because you have to challenge that first, then seeking out information about, \"Okay, if that is true, now I need to be able to connect that to a value.\" What about that would fit for me? And if I do really care about health, which is most people's value when it comes to this stuff, then what information do they need to be able to integrate that and connect it to their value of health?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI really like that, and the importance of identifying your values as guides. And you're exactly right. I know for me, I value health and it looks really different in actions based on different times in my life, and I have to pay attention to that, of what that looks like. And sometimes, it's more rest, sometimes it's more movement, sometimes it's more play, sometimes more sleep, right?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nMm-hmm (affirmative).\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nOr a stress reduction. So there's so many components to that, but I like that it's guided by an overall value. Thank you for speaking to that.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nOf course.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nFor those who want to start the journey of intuitive movement, it can sound really different than everything that culture has taught us which is, \"Make a new year's resolution. Lose this amount of weight. Get a six pack. Join a gym.\" Intuitive movement, it's a very different kind of journey. How do you advise people start that journey and what could that look like?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah. I would encourage every single person that before you look at where you want to go, meet yourself where you are. And so that's why we have our essential guide to enjoying exercise, which is really framed around how do you meet yourself where you are, taking those little quizzes that we provide, the truth, false, and all of that, because I think a lot of people, when they see that, they may feel like, \"Well, I don't have a weird relationship to exercise. I like movement.\" And yet, 99% of people that I give this checklist to that's in the essential guide, they're picking a hand full of them regardless because it's important to remember that we are made up of so many different parts that all exist at the same time. That's not too woo-woo, and that even if there's parts of us that feel really confident in the fact that we enjoy movement and we're not abusing it, there's other parts of us that have been exposed to diet culture, maybe for decades, and that is not going to not have an effect on us. Our brain has been wired to believe a lot of those myths, especially because I will say firsthand, they're not challenging any of this in schools. They're not even teaching this in schools, not to my knowledge at the very least, not when I was in school. And so we need to start first by even being curious about what internalized beliefs and narratives have I picked up over time that I don't even know exist? What have I agreed to believe? And then from there, once you meet yourself where you are, that's when you can start moving towards, \"Okay, how can I maybe start incorporating more types of intuitive movement, building a community of people that share my values?\" That's super big. Being able to clear out your Instagram of fitstagrams, and being able to go through Pinterest and unfollow or block some pretty destructive recommendations to move away from that on social media, and then finding professionals that can support that work too. If you don't have a therapist or you've never been to therapy, seeking out a therapist educated and health at every size, and being able to ask them to support that journey with you and to be able to provide additional resources, recommendations, and seeking out additional education. And so that's part of the reason also that I have decided to finally bite the bullet, get more familiar with code, and add that favorite resources tab to our website, because I have just been getting slammed with request for like, \"What do you recommend? What resources? Where do I start?\" And I say off the bat, \"We offer you a free resource, head to our homepage on our website. And then step two, pop on over to our favorite resources and go through that list. See what stands out.\"\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI love how resource heavy you are and that you like to equip people to do their own research, and to learn, and to be curious. And so thank you so much for introducing us to the concept of intuitive movement, and giving us tools to know where to start and pause and assess our beliefs and understand the myths that we've been believing for a long time, so that we can start to reshape our view of ourselves, our bodies, and movement.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Kim Gould Fry:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAbsolutely.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThank you so much, Kim. You've been wonderful to talk to. I'm excited to send our listeners in your direction so that they can learn more. I love the idea of joyfully moving in concert with our bodies rather than cajoling them to work out in order to get them. Obviously, we don't all live in the Austin area, but we can take advantage of both Kim and Natalie's expertise. For the free guide to join exercise, visit Kim's website, autonomytherapytx.com. And for diet culture free, joyful movement, I highly encourage you to check out Natalie on Instagram. Find her @bodyposibarre. That's @body, P-O-S-I B-A-R-R-E. Mental Note is a creation of eating recovery center and pathlight mood and anxiety center. If you'd like to talk to a trained therapist to see if treatment is right for you, please call them at (877) 850-7199. If you like our show, sign up for our eNewsletter, and learn more about the people we interview at mentalnotepodcast.com. We'd also love it if you left us a review on iTunes. It helps others find our podcast. Mental Note is produced and hosted by me, Ellie Pike, and directed by Sam Pike, with editing help on today's episode from Ian Kelsall.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n",["Reactive",2976],{"id":2977,"alt":2978,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":2979,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":2980,"is_external_url":177},169398899727683,"Kim Gould Fry","https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F2100x2855\u002F0f031ef240\u002Fkim-gould-fry.jpg",{"alt":2978,"title":14,"source":14,"copyright":14},["Reactive",2982],{"0":2938,"1":2983,"2":2984},"3226f713-dcab-4416-9d77-bea0fd8eea93","1999777c-96e3-4fde-a469-359e38523a13",["Reactive",2986],[],["Reactive",2988],[],["Reactive",2990],{"id":2977,"alt":2978,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":2979,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":2991,"is_external_url":177},{"alt":2978,"title":14,"source":14,"copyright":14},"can-exercise-be-fat-positive-joyful","mental-note-podcast\u002Fcan-exercise-be-fat-positive-joyful",-640,["Reactive",2996],[],"8c79e6c7-03b0-441a-a471-e9d472f8c152","2021-09-07T15:34:44.000Z",["Reactive",3000],[],{"name":3002,"created_at":3003,"published_at":3004,"updated_at":3005,"id":3006,"uuid":3007,"content":3008,"slug":3033,"full_slug":3034,"sort_by_date":67,"position":3035,"tag_list":3036,"is_startpage":177,"parent_id":2953,"meta_data":67,"group_id":3038,"first_published_at":3039,"release_id":67,"lang":201,"path":67,"alternates":3040,"default_full_slug":67,"translated_slugs":67,"_stopResolving":35},"Fatphobia","2026-02-07T19:43:05.993Z","2026-04-24T16:31:47.891Z","2026-04-24T16:31:47.912Z",142556307484800,"39ad392e-9669-4037-8294-8b6c9fb0c045",{"_uid":3009,"topic":2920,"component":2921,"audio_file":3010,"conditions":3014,"meta_title":14,"podcast_id":3016,"transcript":3017,"featured_image":3018,"featured_staff":3023,"treatment_types":3026,"meta_description":14,"staff_presenters":3028,"listing_thumbnail_image":3030},"4aef2a08-2272-44fc-91c7-79e78dfbf8c8",["Reactive",3011],{"id":3012,"filename":3013,"fieldtype":175,"is_private":1974},"163992350361714","https:\u002F\u002Fs3.amazonaws.com\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F7deb4a209f\u002F42_-_jen_ponton_podcast_sam_edit_mixdown.mp3",["Reactive",3015],[],"19093148","\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nJen Ponton first started to notice she stood out from her peers at an early age.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI grew up in a very small town where I was with the same 28 children for eight years of my life.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nShe was an only child, liked connecting with adults, and most importantly, was a different shape than the kids around her.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nMy body, by the time I was like seven years old, was decidedly roly poly. I was immediately pigeonholed as a total weirdo. As my body grew, I became the fat weirdo. So, school was not great, and I was constantly teased for being fat.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThis came to a head every year during summer camp, a time when it's hot and everybody's running around in swimsuits.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThere was a camp that I went to for a really long time where I was called Miss Piggy, which as an adult I think was formative in a good way. If I could live to be like anyone, it would be that martial arts practicing diva who knows her worth, regardless of what anyone else has to say. But as a child, it was devastating. It was the last thing on earth you want to hear as a kid.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI've worked at the eating disorder space for over 10 years. During that time, I've counseled patients, taught university classes, and mentored brave individuals ready to publicly share their stories of recovery. Those cumulative experiences have underscored two bedrock truths for me. First, we cannot assume someone's health status just by looking at them. Second, complimenting weight loss is harmful. These truths seem to be easier for folks to understand in relation to skinny people, but make a stand that you can not assume a fat person's health status from their size or that it's harmful to compliment a fat person if they lose weight. Most people, even medical doctors, might look at you like you have three eyes. So, you can only imagine the uphill struggle it's been for Jen to take her advocacy to the epicenter of thin idealism.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYou see, Jen's story didn't end in humiliation at that summer camp. In fact, those same kids who called her Miss Piggy have probably seen her perform as an actress in any number of shows, from 30 Rock to Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, to Orange is the New Black. But Jen's become even better known for her stance, both on and off screen, against Hollywood's deeply entrenched fat phobia, through her roles as Ruby in AMC's Diet Land, and starring, and the body positive romantic comedy Love on the Run, she's dazzling audiences with performances that refuse to back down. She's also recently delivered the TEDx talk, Hollywood's Fat phobia Problem, and hosts the show, All the Fucks, a storytelling podcast about caring too much.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nShe joins me today to talk about acting, what it's like to live in her body, activism, and how to be a part of positive change in the world. You're listening to Mental Note Podcast. I'm Ellie Pike. We're so honored to have you on the show. You have so much experience working in the film industry, and then have certainly been personally impacted by fat phobia and living in a fat body. So, we're really excited to talk with you a little bit more about what that's been like for you. Can you, kind of before we jump into Hollywood and America's fat phobia problem, can you just tell us a little bit about what it's like to live in your body?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIt's pretty great to live in my body, or it has become so, because I've spent a lot of time pulling myself into recovery from my ED.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nQuick note for listeners who may not be aware. ED is short for eating disorder.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI have spent a lot of time curating my own visual diet and helping my own mental health to not be so bombarded by fat phobia and diet culture. It helps the plus size fashion has become such a wonderful, thriving industry. All of those things helped me to feel very much at home in my body. I do also have to acknowledge my privilege, not just as a white woman, but as a small fat. The breadth of oppression that fat bodies face definitely waxes and wanes, and that's dependent upon a number of factors. As one can surmise, it would definitely be affected by race. A black woman's fat body is not going to have the same experience mine will. I will face more privilege. Fatter bodies than mine are also oppressed much more readily and much more severely than my own. That's an important thing for me to acknowledge.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nHowever, is it an uncomfortable place to live when people feel entitled to my space when people see me as less than, when people shove me in the middle of a street because they just don't feel like I'm worthy of taking up space? Yeah. All of that is pretty trashy, but it definitely does not happen to me as readily or with such entitlement, I think, as it does to fatter bodies, for sure.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThat's really interesting to differentiate and to recognize your privilege, because you're right. Absolutely. You have to kind of notice yourself within the levels of discrimination and oppression that happen. With that being said, it certainly has not been easy for you. You say you're a fat activist. What does that mean to you and what is your mission?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI think the panoply of fat activism is pretty broad. Depending upon what kind of an individual you are and what you do for work, I feel like fat activism can present in any way in what you do. Whether you are in recovery yourself, and you're fighting for the representation and inclusion of the reality that fat individuals have eating disorders and that diet culture in and of itself is a promoted eating disorder, from that to somebody who works in legislation, who works in the government and can push for things like weight stigma to be included in legislation, the protections against weight stigma for employment, for medical malpractice, things like that.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWhat I can do from my little make-believe cloud, I feel like I can be the mirror. I can help set the aspiration, because to me, I think any kind of activism benefits from two positions. The first one is focus on the marginalization, right? So, focus on the oppression that exists when you live in a fat body, in a black body, in a disabled body, in a queer body, in a trans body, to focus on that and the way that life does indeed treat you. Or the other flip side that I personally like to live in is what if my identity had nothing to do with my life?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWhat if you just saw a fat character, a black character, a disabled character, a queer character, a trans character, and they just were living their best life, and nothing at all had anything to do with their particular intersection of marginalizations, because at the end of the day, we're all just people and we all have every right, truly every human right to survive and thrive and pursue our dreams. So, to me, very specifically, my aim of including my fat liberation in my work is to create stories that have a person like me just living. What if-\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nNormalizing.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\n... yes, completely normalizing, completely removing argument altogether.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI so appreciate that. You're making space for yourself and for others who are marginalized to make it more normal. We should see anyone of any size, any color, any sexuality everywhere.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nExactly.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nRight?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nExactly.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nOne of the things I really appreciated when I was listening to your Ted talk was some of the research that you were able to provide and some of the experience you were able to provide from the perspective of living in a fat body. One of the things you touched on just a minute ago was talking about advocating for being protected by legislation. Can you talk a little bit about some of those challenges that fat phobia causes?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nSure. Well, I would say the primary thing to know is that being fat is not considered a protectable marginalization in any legislation, except for Michigan. Michigan protects citizens from weight bias, but literally nowhere else does. There are some States where it's been a bill in progress, but the problem is that the same way that we try and protect these rights for black folks, for women, for LGBTQ individuals, those are very real biases that exist in the workplace. There are horrible, horrible people who will not hire you, who will fire you, who will not promote you because you exist at some juncture of those marginalizations. Fatness has very, very similar stigma against it.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWhen we think about the public view of, let's say, fat industriousness. So, what an employee would be who happens to be fat. If you compare them side by side with a thin individual, the kinds of bias that come up for people are going to include laziness, stupidity, sloth, waste, slovenliness. The default is that fat people are also just dirty, filthier, there's a savagery, there's a stupidity and savagery that's attributed to fatness that is reinforced literally everywhere, from Homer Simpson to the way that we treated the president who just left the office, someone whom I am all about criticizing up and down, and good riddance. However, I will say that the way people focused on his body making him incompetent is so damaging and unfair.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYou're right. We saw it in the news, we continue to see it in the news, we see it in healthcare all the time. I know last night I actually was running a support group, and someone said they went into the urologist for an appointment for a UTI and came out with their BMI circled and highlighted and told that they need to lose weight. Right? So, can you speak to that a little bit? The bias that happens within the healthcare setting and the harm that's caused sometimes by medical providers, and how can we better that system?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWe need to start from the education. We need to start from the second that these people are in med school. First of all, hot take here, it is my opinion that the O word, and just to be clear, obesity, it's not actually an illness. It's not. It was pathologized. The BMI scale was created as a tool of racial sorting. It was created to prove that European white bodies were pure and more divine than bodies from African nations, basically. So, the fact that we are using that measure, that antiquated racist tool, it's about the bodily equivalent of phrenology, which is measure your head and see what you're good at. That's about where it lands in the world of real science. To know that that unit of measure is being used to deem whether or not a body is incredibly ill in their point of view is so damaging, and it's so completely off, and it's wrong.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nObesity, the way that the medical community sees it, it's seen as a cause of so many major illnesses and conditions, as opposed to the symptom, first of all. There are many cases in which it is simply the symptom of a specific diagnosis or condition, but also in many ways, a fat body protects you from certain fates. A fat body gives you far more protection from cancer in a number of studies than it does lead toward cancer. There's very little actually pointing in that direction. Also, there are just so many studies that also show that heart health is not hobbled by being in a fat body. It's not indicative of what size you are. It is indicative of the way that you conduct your life. But if you conduct your life-\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nRight, like your health behaviors.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, your health behaviors. That's not coded for being thin at all. That's just are you taking care of your heart? Are you taking it out for a walk here and there? Are you feeding it nutrients? Are you getting enough sleep? Are you completely stressed out all the time? Heart health is a combination of that, and if you live in a fat body and you practice those behaviors, you are more inclined to be completely okay heart wise than you would be if you were in a thin body. Bariatric health should not even be a thing. I am ranting a little bit here, but all of this is to say...\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYou're like, \"So, my next topic...\"\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, and another thing. But at the end of the day, this is my tinfoil hat, there's way too much pharmaceutical money that goes into medicine. There are too many mixed incentives, and it turns into the incentive not being about patient care, but rather about serving this particular pharmaceutical company that has a handshake deal with your hospital system to push this particular brand of drug, including this brand new trial of this new bariatric surgery, of this new weight loss medication.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThere's too much lobbying in medicine. Because of that, it turns doctors into salespeople on top of shoddy, outdated, under-researched education that they're given in medical school, which basically tries to teach the shortcut that being fat is pathology, being fat itself is a disease. It's so incredibly unhelpful, and doctors have incredible bias, the same way I just described with employers in workplaces.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYou bring up great points. Well, and on that subject too, I'm going to direct our listeners to the episode that we just put out with Meredith Nisbett on health at every size, because she does talk about some of that research and some of what it looks like in research to use health behaviors versus have a focus on weight. You're right, the more health behaviors that people showed, it didn't matter what their weight was in order to indicate if they felt healthy and were healthy. We can certainly direct listeners to some of that research if they're interested. Let me jump into a little bit more about this. What are some of the stereotypes of white fat women, and do they differ from white fat men or black fat women? Talk about some of the differences within the fat community and the biases.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nDefinitely. Fat phobia and weight bias is innately racist in nature, and specifically racist against black women or misogynoir. It stems all the way from colonialization in Africa, when these Protestant colonists were observing that African culture was more sensual in nature, it was celebratory, it was sexual, it involved eating and dancing and joy and love and touch. In the meantime, Protestants had completely embraced this wackadoo culture of deprivation. Everything was somber and solemn, and there was no enjoyment. You can't enjoy food because that's ungodly. You can't enjoy sex because that's ungodly. Everything was about piety. Everything was about a self-flagellation. So, to see an African culture living the complete opposite of that was to deem them ungodly.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nSo, as time passed, the racial guidelines became fuzzier, because you couldn't simply say, \"Well, this person is black, so therefore they are ungodly.\" What happened was now that you're having interracial babies being born, you could no longer say definitively, \"Well, this person is black, this person is white,\" and they couldn't make that judgment call. So, with a little bit of time, it started defaulting to body size, fatness. So, if this person of mixed heritage is now a little thicker, well, that's what's making them ungodly. This judgment passed quickly to white women as a way to control them. White women were now decreed to need to maintain a slender figure to be whole, to be a worthy woman, to be unsullied, to not be a harlot. Right? So, there's a lot of purity of a white woman kept up in thinness.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nFor black women, I mean, even though they had no chance of getting close to that ideal for virtue of their blackness alone, it was certainly more punishable the fatter that you were, and more worthy of praise the more that you embraced the white decree of thinness. So, knowing that history explains a ton of what we have actually internalized and why. It's not a puzzle as to why laziness, sloths, lack of willpower are all attributes that are given to fat bodies. It's not a coincidence that those are also ways in which we malign blackness. It's not a puzzle. So, when we talk about the way that white fat bodies are treated differently than black fat bodies, a lot of it is about shame versus dehumanization, if I had to put it in such simple terms. It's definitely a gender difference, without question.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nFat males will not ever have as difficult a time as fat females, because men are closer to the ideal. So, for women, it is a decree to be closer to men, to be closer to godliness and worthiness. Men are already there, right? So, being fat is not as much of a liability for a man as it is for a woman. Between black and white women, this idea of shaming versus dehumanizing, the way it shows up is I think it very much speaks to that colonial experience. When you see a fat white woman on television or in a movie, you can almost bank on the fact that she is sad, she hates herself, there's a ton of self-loathing, there's a ton of bullying, nobody wants to date her, nobody wants to marry her, she is probably a virgin, she's a cat lady, she's sad, somebody says to her, \"Oh, you have such a pretty face,\" or, \"You could be so pretty if...\" Blah, blah, blah.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI have described almost every single plot line that includes a fat white woman. Yeah. I know this movie by the back of my hand. That is a tool to help bring white women in line. Whereas if you see a fat black woman in media, and I would go so far as to say that you see more of them, but not in a way that indicates that we're doing the right thing. That's not necessarily good. I think the fact that we see more black women in media, but in these tropes, is deeply harmful, because we're saying that, \"Okay, well, you're only worth seeing in this 2D manner, and fatness is so unwanted that we would never make a white woman take it on. Instead, let's save these portrayals for black women.\" Right? It's already just reinforcing that racist, sexist, misogynoir standpoint.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nBut when you see a fat black woman on TV, she's almost never sad, quiet, wallflower, virgin. No. She is oversexed. She is loud, she is proud, she is wearing tight, loud clothing, she is getting laid, she is flirtatious and ostentatious. When we see a body like that doing that, it's not meant to celebrate the power of being a fat black woman. It is meant to savagize. It's meant to dehumanize and say, \"Well, this tracks. Here is a fat black woman. This is what that means.\" All of those are what are highlighted for fat black female characters versus fat white characters. They are both incredibly harmful for the way the world takes it in as well as for reinforcing those stereotypes in their own respective communities.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nAbsolutely. When you talk about it, it takes me back to your Ted talk, and there was a statistic that stood out to me. I think it was that about 67% of American women are plus sized.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nCorrect.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nSo, talking about representation of fat bodies in media, it doesn't seem to line up with where we are as a society.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nNot at all.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWhat change do you hope to see, and how do you hope to increase that visibility of fat bodies in media?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIt's a timely question, especially because I believe quarantine and whatever the culture is like post this most acute pandemic life that we've all been living, a lot of people don't have access to the ways in which they used to maintain thinness, because thinness is inherently classist. You know what I mean? It takes so much to maintain a body that is sculpted in the ways that thin, vaulted bodies are sculpted that maintain the exact angles and proportions that we laud in this culture. It takes a lot of resources. It takes a ton of money. It takes a ton of free time. It takes trainers and nutritionists and personal chefs. You know?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nBodies in general, even if not everybody is meant to be fat, certainly are not meant to naturally be that thin and that cut, et cetera. So, now that even some of the wealthiest among us and some of the most privileged among us don't have full unfettered access to the ways in which they used to protect their thinness, I think we are seeing more real discussions about what your body does when you leave it alone. I hope, I believe and I hope that there is a humanization there, that there is a self-reflection on a grand scale of, \"Oh.\"\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThe way that I've seen it play out with a lot of people, especially closer to the beginning, like June last June or so, is that there was this terror of, \"Oh my God, this is not my summer body,\" which even just saying that makes me want to vomit. But even that assessment and turning just in terms of normal recovery points of view, turning that from, \"Oh, I don't recognize my body anymore,\" into, \"This is a body that is surviving a killer virus.\" That there's strength in that.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYes, and radical acceptance acceptance. Right?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nRadical acceptance.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nMy body is serving me well right now, and it may not look like what culture says it should look like.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYes.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nBut my body is doing something good for me. It's surviving.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYes.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThat's pretty incredible.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYeah, 1,000%, 1,000%. Our bodies know better than we give them credit for. But also, what I really think the focus has to be on, at least in media, is truly a from the writer down. We should be seeking to subvert expectations in every single step. Even if I'm talking about normal, thin actors, right? When we get really excited about a TV show, it's expected that the best friend is the black character. Of course the luminous black woman is not going to be the person who's actually starring in it. Of course she's the one who's going to be second banana. Can we subvert that? Can we start just empowering the least empowered voices among us to start telling stories?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWe need cooperation from the top down, because there's only so much that I can do as an actor. There's only so much that the casting directors that I work with can do from their position, because they need the encouragement and willingness from the producers, who in turn need the encouragement and willingness from the writer's room, who in turn need the encouragement and willingness from the studio executives and network executives. So, we all honestly need to be on the same page, because if just one of the smaller fish is trying to make that argument, change is not going to happen, which is why we actually see real change happen when social outcry becomes unignorable.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI completely agree with you that it's a whole system change, right? It's like cogs in the wheel. If one piece moves, all the pieces have to move in order to crank this whole system and change the direction that we're going.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nRight.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWith that being said, I remember at the beginning of this episode, you said that you've curated your visual diet. I'm curious for our listeners who are like, \"Yeah, I want to consume better media. I want to be more inclusive in what I consume.\" How does someone do that, and how could someone curate their visual diet, whether it's social media or Hollywood?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nSocial media is definitely the easiest place to do so, for sure. For sure. I mean, that becomes as simple as following some hashtags or seeing somebody who occupies a radical body whom you admire, and maybe seeing who they follow and finding other radical bodies, whether that presents in terms of fatness or queerness or blackness, or a combination of all of those, disability, and adding a lot of bodies of alternate empowerments, I'm going to say. That has made such a world of difference for me. I mean, I have thin friends, so I follow theme, but I, by in large, do not follow thin strangers. I seek out to follow radical fat marginalized bodies, specifically from different ethnic bathroom backgrounds than mine, in order to help continue to stretch my mind and continue get the kind of visibility for a body like my own, for an unwanted body like my own, the same kind of visibility as I gave to 17 Magazine, or YM, or commercials, where I constantly just saw the same angular, thin pretty white girl over and over and over and over again.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThat is so subliminally damaging because from a very literal point of view, it makes you feel like you are not the default. If you can make yourself feel like the default, and specifically, if you can make fat bodies feel like the default, even if you yourself do not occupy a fat body, that's going to help you de-stigmatize the way that you see the world. It's going to help gently break up those little sheets of ice that create biases. If you can create a little social media oasis where all the bodies that you see are radical, rebellious bodies, you're going to have more empathy for marginalized people in your day-to-day life. You're going to have a greater awareness, you're going to have a greater care, you're going to have a greater appreciation of your own body in whatever way it differs from the social celebrated norm.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIt is a win-win across the board for everybody, everything, and society. I would say as a consumer of media, your views and your dollars and your voice matters. So, the same way I just did that whole giant little fish to big fish system that went all the way up to studio and network executives, those are the people who are listening to the viewers, because they want the viewers. So, when viewers are condemning or refusing to watch certain shows because they are non-inclusive enough, because they're perpetuating the same old stereotypes and casting that we have long suffered from, they're going to start second guessing the way that they cast the next one, or whether they want to keep this while in the air, or add a new character who happens to satisfy the viewing base, whatever it is. They listen, and the squeaky wheel gets the grease.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nSo, if you can be a viewer whose voice longs to be heard, that is only going to help. Where you direct your attention is helpful. So, right off the real, I mean, some radical places to watch subversive TV would be, I'll pitch my own show, Diet Land on Hulu, Shrill on Hulu, Wendy West and Aidy Bryant's show, Claws, Pose. These are all great examples. Nicole Byer doing anything is always very important. These are all great examples of ways to support and put your views, i.e dollars, behind radical representation in culture. You do have that power as a viewer. En mass, that is definitely an engine for change, for sure.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nJen, thank you so much. You have given us such a broad view and then such a specific view of how we can start to change the system just one person at a time, for ourselves, but also for media and for the greater culture at large. Thank you so much for your input and your insight. If people want to follow you and check you out on social media, how do they do that?\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nI am on Twitter at Jen Ponton, at Instagram at Jen Ponton. If you want to check out my podcast, it is nested on my website, which is jenponton.com, and that'll take you to all kinds of wonderful things in the archives of the stuff I like to make.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nWonderful. Thank you so much just for your insight and for your positivity. I'm excited to continue the conversation with our listeners as they listen and grow alongside of myself.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nYes.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nSo, thank you so much for your input.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Jen Ponton:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nOh, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. This has been great.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nThank you for listening to today's episode with Jen Ponton. As she pointed out, a great way to start your journey of positive change is by curating your media diet to include fat people and other personalities that challenge the status quo of who is normal. So, head over to Jen's website, at jenponton.com, J-E-N-P-O-N-T-O-N, .com. You can also find her on Instagram and Twitter by searching for @JenPonton. Mental Note is a creation of Eating Recovery Center and Path Light Mood and Anxiety Center.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nIf you'd like to talk to a trained therapist to see if treatment is right for you, please call them at (877) 850-7199. Eating Recovery Center and Path Light Mood and Anxiety center are also hosting their annual conference as a virtual event this summer. Join hundreds of professionals on August 24th and 25th for the 2021 Path Light conference, Transformative Solutions in Mental Health Treatment. It will include 10 research based presentations on the complexities of mood, anxiety, and trauma related disorders. Attendees can earn up to 15CE credit hours, as well as learn practical skills to identify, assess, and treat patients with mental health disorders.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr \u002F>\r\nSign up at pathlightbh.com\u002Fevent\u002Fpbh-conference. If you like our show, sign up for our e-newsletter and learn more about the people we interview at mentalnotepodcast.com. We'd also love it if you left us a review on iTunes. It helps others find our podcast. Mental Note is produced and hosted by me, Ellie pike, and directed by Sam Pike, with editing help on today's episode from Ian [Kelsa 00:39:11]. Till next time.\u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp> \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n",["Reactive",3019],{"id":3020,"alt":14,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":3021,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":3022,"is_external_url":177},169405207997963,"https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F2100x2625\u002F5f4f9fb5c6\u002Fjen-ponton.jpg",{},["Reactive",3024],{"0":2938,"1":3025},"8a612e8f-b1d3-4e1b-b31d-bec5be2b917c",["Reactive",3027],[],["Reactive",3029],[],["Reactive",3031],{"id":3020,"alt":14,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":3021,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":3032,"is_external_url":177},{},"fatphobia","mental-note-podcast\u002Ffatphobia",-600,["Reactive",3037],[],"791f0d6e-7a23-4dfc-bae5-9815cb6c362f","2021-05-13T17:34:02.000Z",["Reactive",3041],[],{"name":3043,"created_at":3044,"published_at":3045,"updated_at":3046,"id":3047,"uuid":3048,"content":3049,"slug":3075,"full_slug":3076,"sort_by_date":67,"position":3077,"tag_list":3078,"is_startpage":177,"parent_id":2953,"meta_data":67,"group_id":3080,"first_published_at":3081,"release_id":67,"lang":201,"path":67,"alternates":3082,"default_full_slug":67,"translated_slugs":67,"_stopResolving":35},"Health at Every Size","2026-02-07T19:42:30.833Z","2026-04-24T16:36:19.112Z","2026-04-24T16:36:19.139Z",142556163481727,"bb54c48f-c379-4993-88f0-e67ea32c2476",{"_uid":3050,"topic":2920,"component":2921,"audio_file":3051,"conditions":3055,"meta_title":14,"podcast_id":3057,"transcript":3058,"featured_image":3059,"featured_staff":3065,"treatment_types":3068,"meta_description":14,"staff_presenters":3070,"listing_thumbnail_image":3072},"c4aaae51-cf0d-43c9-a4bd-c829c66ef201",["Reactive",3052],{"id":3053,"filename":3054,"fieldtype":175,"is_private":1974},"163992432617599","https:\u002F\u002Fs3.amazonaws.com\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F0fc94ae679\u002Fepisode_41_final_-_haes_with_meredith_nesbit_2.mp3",["Reactive",3056],[],"18713915","\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>What happens when we take these two variables, weight and health, and we untangle them and we say someone can pursue health, regardless of weight, regardless of weight change up or down, someone still has the inherent ability to pursue health in ways that have nothing to do with that. And what possibilities does that open up for us?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Hello and welcome to Mental Note Podcast. Today, we'll be talking about the size of our bodies, fatness, health, and how those topics affect society. It's no secret that a lot of us are uncomfortable with the shape and size of our bodies. Thanks in no small part to the $72 billion weight loss industry. Yeah, that's a lot of money spent on creating the thin ideal. So what's so bad about fat in the first place? And how much does it truly affect a person's health? To cut through a lot of the misinformation out there we've invited Meredith Nisbet to answer some of our most common questions when it comes to body size.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>My name is Meredith Nisbet. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm the supervisor of the clinical response team with Eating Recovery Center and Pathlight Mood & Anxiety Center.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Meredith has discovered a special passion for connecting clients and healthcare providers with the fat acceptance research and principles. She's learned in the Health at Every Size community, HAES, for short,\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>When I first got into the eating disorder community, I had never heard of Health at Every Size, and my friend and colleague, Dr. Maria Paredes was the one who first introduced me to Health at Every Size and really welcomed me into that community and helped me find community in that. And so it's become somewhat of a passion project of mine to talk with folks about health at every size, and really dig into the research and find out how we can utilize this to benefit our clinical practice and to help patients have other perspectives than maybe what they're hearing in other areas of their lives.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>HAES principals seek to advance social justice, create an inclusive and respectful community and support people of all sizes in finding compassionate ways to take care of themselves. You are listening to Mental Note Podcast. I'm Ellie Pike. If anyone is listening and just wondering is this episode for me, this episode is for you, because we're all affected by weight bias and just how culture sees it and even the medical community and how the medical community pathologizes weight. So this'll be a really interesting conversation. So stay tuned, we'll dive into more of the principles and even some of the questions that some of our listeners have about health at every size. So just for the general audience tuning in today, if you had to summarize health at every size in just two sentences, what would it mean?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yeah, so health at every size is this idea that weight does not equal health, and that we should, the research evidence-based actually indicates that we should be encouraging folks to pursue health behaviors independent of weight, and also to acknowledge the social justice aspects of oppression. So intersectional identity, including living in a larger body and how the impact of weight stigma and fatphobia, it really drastically impact folks mental and physical health. So this idea that we can pursue health behaviors and pursue health, if we choose to, without having to pursue weight loss.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>How would you describe the principles of Health at Every Size for someone who wants to better understand it?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yeah. There are five main principles of health at every size, so I'll just read them off and then we can go into each one. The five main principles of HAES are weight inclusivity, health enhancement, respectful care, eating for wellbeing and life enhancing movement. So the last two eating for wellbeing and life enhancing movement are also referred to as intuitive eating or joyful movement. Those are things a lot of people I've heard of before, even if they've never heard of HAES, especially intuitive eating. That's when I think the general population is a little bit more familiar with and other parts of HAES. Really the goal of HAES is for us to accept and respect diversity of bodies. So to acknowledge that for millennia bodies have come in all different shapes and sizes, larger bodies are not new, smaller bodies are not new. We've always had diversity in the ways that our bodies are built. And so we want to reject this idea that we need to either idealize or pathologize specific weights. So coming back to this really evidence-based health focused and also life focused format for health.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So going back to the first principle of weight inclusivity, this one is like loaded, right? You're saying, we're not going to use weight as the determinant of health. A lot of studies are out there and a lot of news is out there that does equate weight with health. So what do we do with that?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yeah, absolutely. I think one of my favorite studies that I always reference when I talk to folks about Health at Every Size is a study that was done in 2012 by Matheson King and Everett. When the researchers implemented this study, they wanted to look at the association between healthy lifestyle habits, as they define those, and we'll talk about that in a second, and morbidity risk in this really large population-based sample. These researchers defined healthy habits as eating five or more fruits and vegetables daily, exercising regularly, so no specifics on that, consuming alcohol and moderation, and not smoking. And so the different thing about this study is that they stratified it by BMI. And so when they did that, we were able to see how health behaviors impact morbidity or mortality for folks with higher BMI values.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Just want to interject and say that for those of you who may be screaming at your headphones, yes, BMI is an inherently flawed measurement. But most of the research available about the effects of body size on health utilizes it as a measurement tool. As Meredith explained to me, we've got to make the most of the research available.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So if we look at this study that is analyzing does body size actually moderate health? There's a graph at the end of the study and it shows each... So it's a bar graph, and there's three bars on each piece of the graph. And so as we go across the horizontal access, it's zero to four health behaviors. So how many health behaviors do these people have? So they have zero health behaviors. And then there are three bars with three BMI categories showing mortality risk for zero health behaviors. And then it goes on one health behavior, two, three, four. And so at the very beginning with zero health behaviors, it does show that folks with higher BMI have a higher mortality risk, compared to folks with lower BMI who also have zero health behaviors.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>But as you move on from zero health behaviors and you implement... I mean, even starting at one, you implement one health behavior. We can see that the mortality risk drops nearly in half and brings folks with higher BMI down equal to folks of lower BMI. And as you continue to add in health behaviors, these bars continue to drop drastically and they stay almost even. And so that's all science speak for. Basically what we know after this study is that when you implement health behaviors, your health improves, which sounds kind of silly, right? You would think that that's kind of a given. But the interesting thing about this study is we see it's true, regardless of body size, weight or BMI.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So you're saying that despite somebody's size, the more health behaviors that they brought in, and this is not related to weight loss, it's saying, okay, no matter what size you are, the more health behaviors you do it is increasing your health. It's very simple, right? But it's just not weight loss related. And it's not about, did these health behaviors actually decrease your weight to make you healthier? It's just no matter the size you are, if you include these health behaviors in your life, it makes you healthier.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Right. And it's often it's phrased, especially by folks in the medical community, I don't want to pick on them too much, but it's often phrased as, if you go into the doctor and they say, \"Oh, you need to lose X number of weight.\" They aren't necessarily asking, even before making that recommendation, if you're in a larger body, they're not necessarily saying like, \"Talk to me about how you eat. Talk to me about how you move.\" They're just saying your BMI is X, Y, Z, and you need to lose X, Y, Z amount of weight.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Digging in and thinking about health behaviors. I always think it's interesting to consider what it would be like for folks to go to the doctor who are in larger bodies, and to actually be met with questions and conversation. So if they want to talk about how they're eating or how they're moving and how that impacts their health, versus just a blanket, like you need to lose X amount of weight, go do that.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>I really appreciate that because I think there's a lot of people out there in the world who are like, \"Okay, that sounds ideal. How do I get a health provider like that?\" How does someone find a health provider who's going to be more curious about their health behaviors versus just creating a prescription based on their weight?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yeah, absolutely. I think in North Carolina, we are super lucky to have the practice Mosaic Comprehensive Care in Chapel Hill. They're in all HAES medical practice, but if you're not in North Carolina, as most of you probably are not, the Health at Every Size website has a provider locator. And if there's no one in your area, I think that you can take a little bit of a different approach, where you may have to compromise in terms of, okay, this provider may not be explicitly Health at Every Size, because that's not accessible in my area. But I still am deserving of respectful care, as one of those main pillars of HAES, right? So I'm deserving of respectful care. And what does that mean for me? Does that mean that this doctor or this clinician is willing to look at research that I provide them? Are there certain standards for the way that I want that medical appointment to go? Would I like to decline being weighed. Thinking about your values and what respectful care means for you and your body can help you ask those questions when you're seeking out providers.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>I really appreciate that. Let's hop in a little deeper to respectful care as one of the principles. And a big piece of this as really acknowledging weight bias or your own biases towards another person, and providing fair care, right? And I think this goes to the general public, to respectful relationships, not just care, where I might see someone in a larger body and if my immediate reaction is, \"Oh, they're not healthy.\" Or, \"They need to lose weight.\" I have weight bias, right? I have something I need to observe in myself. And so what are some ways that people can challenge their own weight stigma? And what are some of the impacts of weight stigma?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yeah, absolutely. So I think talking about impact first, so weight stigma really impacts all of us, first of all. I think that's a common misconception about HAES and weight stigma or weight bias in general, is that it only impacts people of size. I personally feel that they impact all of us. It's really important to acknowledge that people of size are of course receiving the majority of that impact, probably the worst of that impact, but to just translate this for everyone, you are in some way impacted by weight bias, whether or not you are aware of it.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So this idea of the thin ideal, and all bodies need to look a certain way and move a certain way and fit a certain size of clothing. Those types of ideals that we have in society are a product of weight bias. And so kind of that societal external information then feeds the experience of folks in larger bodies. And we have tons of research that talks about medical providers spend less time with folks in larger bodies in the patient room. They are less likely to send out for diagnostic tests when they're indicated. They are more likely to perceive folks in larger bodies as lazy or unhygienic, or unintelligent, all of these negative attributes.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>And it doesn't just happen in the medical community. I think it's important to think about how folks in larger bodies move throughout the world. And that really are a lot of our world is not shaped or made for folks in larger bodies. So something as simple as fitting into an airplane seat or finding room to stand on public transportation, being able to sit in a booth in a restaurant, things like that, finding a chair in a medical waiting room that will fit you. I think those are things that folks who are in larger bodies don't have to think about. They can move through the world much easier. They're not worrying about, \"Am I going to be able to fit in this chair? Is it too flimsy for me?\" Those are things that folks in smaller bodies don't necessarily have to think about as they navigate the world. And folks in larger bodies do have to give some brain space to that just as they move throughout their day.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Thank you so much. And I appreciate to the emphasis that this really does impact all of us, not just folks in larger bodies, and that the thin ideal, right? Like this mentality that you should be this size to be \"healthy\" or to look good or to be attractive, whatever those thoughts are. All of that is a result of the thin ideal. And part of that is a fear of gaining weight and a fear of living in a larger body.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>And so that in itself, as a culture, we see that everywhere. Like new year's resolutions, Super Bowl commercials, everything is tied to this in a lot of ways. And in a lot of my conversations that I have with people in the world, I often talk about how this is like such a stigma that goes under the radar, right? This is not talked about publicly in a lot of forums. And if anything, even by our government and even by our legislation, it's really just reinforced when we talk about the obesity epidemic or child obesity and the way that we see it as something to combat versus really saying like, \"You know what? We have people in all sizes of bodies.\" And it's been that way for a long time. So instead of talking about weight as the issue, let's talk about increasing people's access to health behaviors, which really leads to the next piece I wanted to talk to you about, which was health enhancement.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So you talked about that as really equalizing access to information and services. And I think this is really key when we talk about health behaviors, because not everyone has great access to what would mean a health behavior. So not everyone has great access to quality food, or even a grocery store within one mile. So there's a lot of implications there for those who struggle with poverty or access or don't have insurance, right? What does that look like to be an advocate in this area?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yeah, absolutely. I think getting involved locally, wherever you can, just in terms of local efforts to fund eating disorder treatment folks, or to help in food deserts or to volunteer for folks at a soup kitchen or a place where they are able to get food, if they don't have access to food. Anything that you can do on that micro individual level is fantastic.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>And then on a larger macro level, especially if you are a provider of any kind, thinking about how do I advocate for my clients? So how can I help them access things they may not have access to? And then also if that's not possible, if sometimes you are working with someone who you've tried to help them access things, they've tried to access things, and it's just not feasible, working with them to unpack that and understand that these external messages that are saying, \"Do X, Y, Z for health. Eat X, Y, Z food.\" That those things are privileged inherently. That being able to follow absolutely any sort of external mandate from any external entity is a privilege in and of itself.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>And so breaking down those expectations and saying, \"Let's look at what's accessible for you. So we're going to advocate and we're going to try to make more things accessible for you.\" But also, \"How can we meet you where you are? How can we work with what you have? And how can we use the resources that you do have available to you to pursue health?\"\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So, like for example, a certain specific way of eating where you have to eat these specific foods that, maybe cost more, or aren't available out of season, or aren't available in this person's neighborhood, how can you zoom in and say, \"Okay, but what do you have access to? And what do you want to do?\" Not what this external plan or entity thinks that you should do.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So then the last two components are eating for wellbeing or intuitive eating, and life enhancement movement or life enhancing movement, which some people refer to as joyful movement. And I really get excited actually talking about that one. So let's jump into intuitive eating. And this really promotes flexibility. And it's talking about like paying attention to your internal cues.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>I really appreciate the caveat you provided earlier, that this is not necessarily for everyone at every stage in their life. Some people do need more of a monitored meal plan if they're actually working with a treatment team for an eating disorder. For the rest of us, a lot of people might be more ready for this part of life, right? This concept of intuitive eating and being less rigid or restrictive with the types of foods or when they eat, and really paying attention to their body's cues. So how would you intuitively... How do you actually even pay attention to your body to do that?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yeah, absolutely. So this is one of my favorite things to talk about. And it's so funny to me because I always say, we are all born knowing how to eat, right? We come out into the world knowing when we're hungry and knowing when we're full, right? So if you have an infant that is eating a formula or is being breastfed, that infant knows when they're hungry and they're going to let you know, right? And then they're going to let you know when they're done.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>But as we get older and diet culture messaging comes into play, or family dynamics stuff comes into play, any of these external messages that really interrupt that system of feedback within our body, we have a harder time listening to what our bodies want, because there's more messaging coming in and interrupting that. So for example, I woke up this morning and really wanted a waffle for breakfast, that I was just dead set on having a waffle. And I'm out of waffles. And so I said to myself, \"Okay, you can go buy more waffles and you can have a waffle for breakfast tomorrow, but we've got to work with what we have in the house today. We've got to record this podcast.\"\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>And so that flexibility of intuitive eating is important as well, where a lot of folks think intuitive eating is just eating whatever you want, whenever you want. And it's really not about that. It's really about being able to honor what your body's needing. So am I hungry? How hungry am I? Am I full? How full am I? Am I wanting something crunchy? Something softer? Or something more comforting? Something spicy? Sweet? Salty? Acidy? What am I creating and meeting what your body needs. It is about that. But it's also about flexibility in terms of being able to be adaptive to the situation. So like wanting a waffle this morning, not having access to that and saying, \"Okay, we're going to have some Cheerios instead.\"\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So it's not just a free for all with food. I think that's something that can be really scary to folks who are in recovery or working towards recovery from an eating disorder, the idea that they are giving themselves permission to eat anything whenever, wherever, it can be really daunting. And so focusing on, let's bring it down to this meal, so let's bring it down to breakfast. What sounds good to you for breakfast? Not what does your mom think you should eat for breakfast? What does your doctor think you should eat for breakfast? But really zooming in and saying, what do I want? What sounds good to me right now?? And then, how much do I want? How hungry am I? Is that food accessible to me? And walking through those steps, zoomed in per meal or per day, instead of getting overwhelmed with this general large picture of do whatever you want, which is really not what intuitive eating is about.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Heads up that while this info is helpful for most folks is probably not the best starting point for someone who is actively struggling with an eating disorder. Instead, I'd encourage you to work with your treatment team and dietician to find out what's right for you. So moving on to the next piece of life enhancing movement, ah, this is great. I think about some of the clients I used to work with, where they would talk about, \"Oh my gosh, exercise, just that word feels really triggering.\" And life enhancing movement is really talking about finding activities that bring you joy.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>And I really liked that reframe, because I think the word exercise in itself is part of diet culture and really has harmed a lot of us along the way. And it feels very rigid. And I love movement, but still the word exercise. It does make me feel like, \"Oh, I have to be wearing certain clothes, and I have to sweat and I have to do it fast.\" But instead I really liked this concept that you can move joyfully and just find what feels good to you that day. So, Meredith, what are some of the best ways that people can just start with this concept?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yeah. Oftentimes I'll encourage clients to think about the type of movement that they did as children. For example, when I was kid, I loved to climb trees. We had this huge Dogwood tree in our front yard. And I remember as a kid just spending so much time swinging on the branches and climbing up and sitting in the tree. And you would never think of that as exercise, right? But it was a form of movement that I really enjoyed. And it was one of my biggest active activities as a kid. And now I'm not saying I'm going to go climb a tree now, but just thinking back to like, okay, I used to love swinging from a tree branch. So maybe how can I translate that into activity in adult life?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So part of Health at Every Size is reconceptualizing, A, what movement means, but, B, also what your movement and health goals are, rather than the goal for exercise or for movement to be about weight loss, or about changing your body or shrinking your body in that way. How do we reframe our goals and make them actually helpful? So for me, and in my personal journey of HAES, I have found a really great active community here in Raleigh, that I'm a part of. And one of my personal movement goals is to, at some point, I don't know when, I would love to be able to do a pull-up.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So that's something that I'm working on being able to do, I'm doing a lot of strengthening and just working on flexibility. And as I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking no wonder the idea of a pull-up sounds so intriguing to me, or like such a great goal for me. If I take it back to childhood, and I think about like, I love swinging on tree ranges and climbing trees. That's kind of the adult version of that movement for me, I guess. But taking it back to basics and thinking about what did you enjoy as a kid that you didn't really think was movement? That you didn't think was exercise? What was your exercise before you had ever heard of the concept of exercise?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Also thinking about what would you like your body to be able to do, rather than how would you like your body to look, is a good question. And also just trying new things. Sometimes this of joyful movement is like, what is that? What exercise, or not necessarily exercise, but what movement opportunities are available to me? Is reframing this concept that like taking a walk with your partner is also exercise. But it's when we think of it as joyful movement, that feels so much better than having to meet, like you said, the rigorous standards of what exercise is. I have to wear certain clothes. I have to do it for a certain duration. I have to exert myself this much. I have to sweat, those kinds of things.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>When we take those connotations out of the picture and we just focus on, what do I enjoy? What makes me feel good? I have friend who loves to longboard on a long skateboard. And that's been one of her favorite, joyful move activities. Other people really love Zumba. Just finding things that are fun that you actually want to do and have different goals, rather than just a very structured strict, you must do this because someone else says so, kind of thing, where we really bring it back into those internal cues.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So, Meredith, I could talk to you for days, but I want to move into a lightning round of questions, because there's a lot of skepticism around Health at Every Size. And it's because it feels very counter-cultural and it's not typically what is talked about writ large. So I have some questions that you and I have brainstormed ahead of time. And these are, my previous students, when I used to teach a college class, or maybe a family member that I've heard asked the question, or maybe a client along the way. So I'm just going to ask you a couple of these questions and see how you can support the answers, because I know that our listeners are asking similar questions. One person, I remember this was a student, they asked, so you're saying that weight loss should never be the goal. Why not?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yeah. That's a great question. And arguably, maybe the most common question that I get when I talk about HAES. I think it's important to ask what the real goal is here. So even when weight loss has presented as the goal, I think that we can translate that into a different goal. So for example, if your doctor is recommending that you lose weight, some doctors may be focused on the number, but I would like to believe that our medical providers have our best interests in mind, even when they are operating in a frame of bias, right? And so being able to think about, \"Okay, does this doctor believe that weight loss is going to solve the problem that I'm having?\"\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So if my doctor believes that weight loss is going to solve the cold that I came in with, probably not. If my doctor is concerned that I'm having high blood pressure and thinks that losing weight will lower my blood pressure, I have another goal that I can translate that into. So I can say, \"Okay, what are alternative ways that I can lower my blood pressure? I can control my stress better. I can be a little bit more active or find that joyful movement. I can do some meditation to, again, control, stress level.\" All of these things that we know do actually impact this one particular ailment, high blood pressure. The reason that weight loss should never be the goal is because we have tons of studies showing how the body responds to weight loss in the longterm.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>To kind of put a different spin on it. I actually, we had this conversation recently with someone and they're in recovery from anorexia, and they said something very unique that I think is helpful to address. So they said, \"I have lots of internal biases about weight. For example, when I had anorexia, I was required to gain weight. So I'm still struggling with the idea that someone in a larger body wouldn't have the same goals of losing weight as they recover from binge eating disorder.\" Can you speak to that?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yeah, this is, I think, such a common thing, and I am so appreciative of this person doing this work and untangling those ideas, because it is challenging. And I think that speaks to how challenging it can be and how important it is to ask those questions and to be curious about those things. So I think the first thing that I want to address is that someone in a larger body isn't necessarily in recovery or striving for recovery, or even has a diagnosis of binge eating disorder. So it's really important to acknowledge that eating disorders impact folks of all shapes and sizes across all diagnoses. It's a really common misconception that you have a diagnosis of anorexia that you have to be very, very malnourished, have to be hospitalized and that you're not sick enough if you're not very, very ill, and in the hospital.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Folks in larger bodies actually are underdiagnosed with restrictive eating disorders, because providers don't screen them. They assume that, A, they assume they don't have an eating disorder, but, B, if they do think they have an eating disorder, they assume it's binge eating disorder. And that's actually not accurate either. So thinking about how can we zoom out, and just be more curious about what folks are experiencing.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>But going back to what this question is actually asking, which is, I was required to gain weight in recovery. Why is someone else not being required to lose weight in recovery if they're in a larger body? And it really goes back to the root of, this is not about weight, even though on the surface, especially for someone with a restrictive eating disorder being required to gain weight in treatment, on the surface, it does look like it's about weight, and it's only about weight, right? All of your providers may be saying like, \"Hey, we really need you to weight restore. We really need you to make sure you're completing your meal plan.\" All of these things. But at the root of the treatment plan, the goal is not just for someone to gain weight. The goal is for someone to become medically stable, and to gain the ability to engage in therapy. So those are two of the main goals of eating disorder treatment, help someone become medically stable, help them cease behaviors that are maladaptive and, or not working for them. And how can we help them engage better in therapy?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>And so those three things are true regardless of someone's body size, regardless of someone's diagnosis. And so for someone who is very malnourished, which malnourishment can occur in all body sizes, not just small body sizes, for someone who's malnourished, part of becoming medically stable is weight restoration, where for someone who is in a larger body, doesn't have a restrictive eating disorder, maybe is someone in a larger body struggling with bulemia or with binge eating disorder, or a non-restrictive necessarily eating disorder. That person isn't being required to gain weight or lose weight to become medically stable, because that's not what's making them medically unstable.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>So for someone who is struggling with bulemia and they're purging, purging is the medical concern there. And so there's nothing to do with weight gain or loss necessarily there for stability, it's about cessation of the purging behavior. So it's really looking at individualized, what does this person need to become medically stable, and to be able to engage in therapy.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>In the concept of Health at Every Size, we're really moving away from using the word obese and making the word fat really acceptable. And so there's a lot to this, but in simple terms, here's what someone says. So they say, \"Isn't fat, a bad word. It has negative connotations in society. So I struggle with using it, even though I know that using it in a neutral and positive way would help de-stigmatize being large or being in a large body.\" So why use the word fat and what do you do when... This is like a scary word for a lot of people to use.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>In the broad sense, obese or obesity are not, and you'll hear a lot of folks refer to that as the O word. Those are words and terms that were not coined by the fat community, those are terms that were developed by the medical community. And they're rooted in BMI, because we know that BMI is inherently problematic. It was never intended to be a medical measure of health. That is part of the issue. The second part of the issue is that when that word is being weaponized against communities, so when obese or obesity are being used, as they often are, to dehumanize or pathologize body size, rather than looking solely at health, that's a big issue that the fat community takes with those words. And so I think the fat community has really embraced the word fat as a neutral descriptor. So just like we would say, this person is tall, they're short, they're old, they're young, they have brown hair, they have blonde hair, that we're adopting fat as a descriptor just like that. And kind of reclaiming that and de weaponizing that word.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Fat may be something that's triggering for you. And it's perfectly okay to feel that way and to not prefer that word. I think it's a very individual choice. And so when I talk with providers about how to address this with clients or with patients, I always tell them like, here's general information about why the community at large has reclaimed or adopted this word, but also ask your clients, ask the people that you're interacting with on a daily basis, listen to the way they self identify or the way that they describe themselves. And if they don't, if you don't hear that, just ask. I think it's similar to pronouns and that the more that we normalize that the better it will be for everyone.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Absolutely. And so last question, and then I know we need to wrap up. So the last question I have is someone that says, \"I've never thought so much about the social justice effect of stigmatizing fat bodies. How can I help?\" And I love this question because there is a large component of this that really is about social justice and it is a social justice movement. So how can people help and be part of the positive change?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yes, absolutely. I get so excited when people even just start to consider other perspectives, even if you have listened to this podcast and you're like, \"This makes no sense. There's no point in thinking anymore about this.\" I would encourage you to just be curious, do some reading if this is intriguing to you, but you're not sure, you're not sold on it. Questions to ask when you're thinking about Health at Every Size and wanting to get involved with a social justice aspect are, what assumptions do I make about a person's character, intelligence, professionalism, health status, or lifestyle behaviors that is based only on weight? What are common stereotypes about people in larger bodies that I believe to be true? And why do I believe those to be true? What are my views about the causes of higher weight? How does this impact my attitudes about size diversity? How do these biases impact the care I provide to all patients? And for folks who aren't providers listening, how do these biases impact the way that I interact with all people in the world?\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Another thing that folks can do to get involved is to join your local, I believe they have local chapters of ASDAH, which is A-S-D-A-H, the Association for Size Diversity and Health. You can also get involved in your local eating disorder community. A lot of them have HAES ties, not all of them, but a lot of them do. And I would encourage you to really just jump into the online community. There are tons of Instagram pages and hashtags for Health at Every Size. There are tons of great books to read, also some great podcasts on Health at Every Size nutrition. The one that comes to mind right now is called Maintenance Phase. The Instagram page, yrfatfriend, which is yrfatfriend, is a really great resource. There's tons of information on the internet. And so really just kind of seeking out the information on things that you're curious about is a great way to get involved.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>And then finally having conversations with folks in your personal life, if you have fat people in your life that you love, as many of us do, showing up and supporting them and not putting your bias onto them.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Meredith, thank you so much for providing those practical tools of how we can just learn more and take the next step to understanding our own biases, and then getting involved in creating change. You are so well-spoken and so informative. So thank you so much for bringing your voice onto the podcast. And we hope to hear from me soon.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Meredith Nisbet:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Yeah. Thanks for having me.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Awesome. Thanks, Meredith. (singing). Wow. We covered a lot in today's interview. I feel incredibly grateful to Meredith for condensing so much knowledge and research into a short podcast. Obviously you may be left with questions. You may even want to argue some of her points, and that's okay. This is just a starting point. And I really encourage you to check out the resources she talked about. We have links to the HAES website, some popular body positive social media accounts and a searchable list of HAES aligned health care providers. So check that out in our show notes.\u003C\u002Fp>\u003Cp>\u003Cstrong>Ellie Pike:\u003C\u002Fstrong>\u003Cbr>Mental Note Podcast is a creation of Eating Recovery Center and Pathlight Mood & Anxiety Center. If you'd like to talk to a trained therapist to see if treatment is right for you, please call them at (877) 850-7199. If you like our show, sign up for our e-newsletter and learn more about the people we interview at mentalnotepodcast.com. We'd also love it if you left us a review on iTunes, it helps others find our podcast. Mental Note is produced and hosted by me, Ellie Pike, and directed by Sam Pike, with the editing help on today's episode from Ian Kelsall. Till next time. (singing)\u003C\u002Fp>",["Reactive",3060],{"id":3061,"alt":3062,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":3063,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":3064,"is_external_url":177},169406275927580,"Meredith Nisbet","https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F2100x2799\u002F33ac768b9f\u002Fmeredith-nisbet.jpg",{"alt":3062,"title":14,"source":14,"copyright":14},["Reactive",3066],{"0":2938,"1":3067},"6854026d-f1d0-4666-99eb-7214b9615518",["Reactive",3069],[],["Reactive",3071],[],["Reactive",3073],{"id":3061,"alt":3062,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":3063,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":3074,"is_external_url":177},{"alt":3062,"title":14,"source":14,"copyright":14},"health-every-size","mental-note-podcast\u002Fhealth-every-size",-590,["Reactive",3079],[],"82d5682f-d2c1-4815-8478-640efca2e1c4","2021-04-13T21:13:23.000Z",["Reactive",3083],[],{"name":3085,"created_at":3086,"published_at":3087,"updated_at":3088,"id":3089,"uuid":3090,"content":3091,"slug":3118,"full_slug":3119,"sort_by_date":67,"position":3120,"tag_list":3121,"is_startpage":177,"parent_id":2953,"meta_data":67,"group_id":3123,"first_published_at":3124,"release_id":67,"lang":201,"path":67,"alternates":3125,"default_full_slug":67,"translated_slugs":67,"_stopResolving":35},"Dr. Aldridge Answers Eating Disorder Questions","2026-02-07T19:22:25.080Z","2026-06-08T18:24:06.555Z","2026-06-08T18:24:06.574Z",142551224712839,"8cbd90ea-8e60-4880-bcb3-6c1747e826d3",{"_uid":3092,"topic":2920,"audience":3093,"component":2921,"audio_file":3094,"conditions":3098,"meta_title":14,"podcast_id":3100,"transcript":3101,"featured_image":3102,"featured_staff":3107,"treatment_types":3110,"meta_description":14,"staff_presenters":3112,"listing_thumbnail_image":3115},"fe293473-d2da-4853-a029-168c3dce3b35","Community",["Reactive",3095],{"id":3096,"filename":3097,"fieldtype":175,"is_private":1974},"163995419179676","https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F253d7d0961\u002Fdr_aldridge__-_103019_-_sp.mp3",["Reactive",3099],[],"12010427","\u003Cp>[music] [00:00:00] \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie Pike: Dr. Delia Aldridge is a leading expert on how complicated patients can find newfound levels of stability and momentum. She specializes in the refeeding process for people with eating disorders who also struggle with self-injury, PTSD, mood disorders, and substance use disorders. After recently joining the team at Eating Recovery Center in Chicago, [00:00:30] I thought it would be the perfect opportunity to dive into some common listener questions we get at Mental Note podcast. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Today's episode will be a fantastic resource for friends and family members of people seeking recovery from eating disorders. We'll talk about why diets don't work, how self-harm and eating disorders are connected, what treatment looks like, and the long term complications of restrictive eating. Please, pass this along to anyone you know who will benefit from Dr. Aldridge's knowledge. [00:01:00] \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Above all, I think it's most important to see how hopeful a trailblazer like Dr. Aldridge really is. Eating disorders are one of the most fatal mental illnesses, yet there are proven methods to find recovery and she's here to help us understand them. You're listening to Mental Note podcast. I'm Ellie Pike. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>[music] \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>[00:01:30] \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Delia Aldridge: My name is Delia Aldridge. I am a board-certified psychiatrist and a certified eating disorder specialist, as well as an iaedp-approved supervisor with 17 years of experience in the inpatient partial hospitalization and outpatient level of care, treating adolescents and adults with eating disorder, mood disorder, anxiety, PTSD, self-injury, personality disorder, as well as substance abuse. [00:02:00] \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: We are so honored to have your expertise on this show for a special Q&A. We have a lot of questions that our listeners have sent in. One of them pertains to diets. As you know, diets are very pervasive in our culture. There's always a new diet that promotes that it works. \"This is the new diet. This is what will work for you.\" I'm wondering if you could please share with our listeners a little bit about why diets don't work. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Yes, most people will lose weight while on a diet, [00:02:30] but the research has shown that one- to two-thirds of people that are on diet regain more weight after they lost within four or five years. That happens because our body is experiencing dieting as a stressor. When we're stressed, we produce high levels of stress hormones such as cortisol and adrenaline. These hormones cause our body to slow down the rate at which we burn calories, and eat more to survive. Our body's intentionally slowing down [00:03:00] our weight loss efforts because it perceives our reduced calorie intake as a threat to survival. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Think like hibernation and the need to save energy. In these cases, body reacts by slowing down our heart rate, lowering our blood pressure, slowing down digestion, reducing blood flow to our hands and feet, and to some extent, our reaction to outside world. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: For someone who chronically [00:03:30] diets or even someone who has developed an eating disorder, how does that lack of adequate nutrition affect the brain and how someone feels, their mood per se? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Well, I want to bring up the first study that was done in history, in 1940s by Dr. Ancel Keys, which is called Minnesota Starvation Experiment, in which 36 volunteers that were fed 1,500 calories a day with foods reflecting what was commonly available in the wartime [00:04:00] in Europe, and they looked to document the physiological and psychological effects of severe and prolonged dietary restriction. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: This famous study sought to answer the basic questions of how human bodies respond to a drop in calories. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Jim Graham: In making plans for relief activities after the war, there were a lot of questions that needed answers. What do you feed a starving person to bring him or her back to health? What's the most economical use of food materials when supplies [00:04:30] are severely limited? We knew fairly well what a starved person looked like, and what starvation did to the human body, but until this time, there had never been an opportunity to measure exactly what changes take place in the body under starvation conditions. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: What you're listening to is archival audio from Jim Graham, a participant in the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. While experiments like this are no longer viable under ethics standards, [00:05:00] it did help to lay a strong foundation for our understanding of how human bodies respond to the stress of dieting, and why it's doomed to fail. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: The study, participants lost about 24% to 25% of their body weight in six month. They report high levels of depression, emotional distress, so many of them became self-harming. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Jim: We became very irritable and intolerant, little things seemed to annoy us. [00:05:30] We were no longer polite with each other or with visitors. It seemed as if the veneer of civilization had been removed, leaving bare the animal underneath. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: It's similar to what we see actually in our patients that come in with significant weight loss. They also notice reduced ability to laugh, to blush, or they completely have no facial expression sometimes. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Jim: If I tried to smile, it was just a grimace,[00:06:00] and I never laughed. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: We know that there's a crossover between eating disorders and self-injury. Could you please explain a little bit about self-injury and what that is and how it differs from suicidality? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Yes. First of all, self-injury is separate from suicidal thoughts or behaviors in which individuals want to end their lives. People usually report that they have no expectation or no intention [00:06:30] to cause death when they engage in self-injury. In fact, in some cases, self-injury may be used to manage intense distress that may associate with suicidal thinking. Non-suicidal self-injury is a term oftenly used interchangeably with self-injury, though it is important to bear in mind that self-injury may carry lethal and non-lethal intent. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>People engage in self-injury for many different reasons. One of the most common reported reason [00:07:00] is to cope with negative emotions, such as sadness, or anger, or negative thoughts such as self-criticism. Some people also use self-injury to punish themselves, to gain a sense of control, to communicate their pain, to reconnect with themselves or others, or to alleviate numbness. Some people say to me, \"Just to feel something.\" \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Although suicide is not typically the objective of self-harm, [00:07:30] there is increased risk of suicide in individuals engaging in these behaviors. I had situations in which patients were reporting that they were injuring them self to survive, because the physical pain that comes with self-injury gives them a temporary relief from emotional pain that is unbearable. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: You used some great examples there to explain that self-injury is not necessarily being suicidal, [00:08:00] but it could actually be a way of surviving through expressing emotions that can't be expressed through words, to feel that physical pain that they're feeling emotionally. Can you explain a little bit about how eating disorders and self-injury are related? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Both self-harm and eating disorder behaviors can be used as ways to escape, avoid, or otherwise regulate negative emotional states. Patients with self-harm and eating disorder behaviors, they often describe [00:08:30] experiencing strong negative emotions, or emotional ability that is feeling out of control. They also tend to judge themselves harshly for having feelings or are afraid of their emotions, which leads them to feel desperately to find relief. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>If you ask a patient why they self-harm, or why they engage in an injurious behavior, they sometimes will tell you that those behaviors numb their emotions or they distract them from their emotions, [00:09:00] or give them a brief sense of calm or relief. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: The connection between eating disorders and self-harm is backed up by data 25% to 55% of eating disorder patients also self-injure, and 50% to 60% of self-injury patients also qualify as having an eating disorder. Recognizing this common ground has a profound impact on treatment. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: The share function of the [00:09:30] non-suicidal self-injury and the eating disorder may have greater success in treatment if we address both behaviors in the same time. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: How would you treat someone dealing with both of these issues, the eating disorder, and self-injury? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Typically, we want to make sure that we stabilize the eating disorder, that they're medically stable, that they keep up with their nutrition while they learn ways to cope with their emotions. [00:10:00] Obviously, sobriety has to happen in the same time. Unless we address all there components, sometimes it's hard for patients to mange their emotions. I've been working in the past in an inpatient unit for 17 years where patients would come in from residential programs for eating disorder only to complain that they started to self-injure because they couldn't cope with their body image. [00:10:30] \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Patients come sometimes from substance abuse program with eating disorder or self-injury behaviors because their emotions are so unbearable when they try to be sober that they couldn't maintain. I personally have seen many severe cases achieve recovery when the comorbidities were properly treated. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: You use the phrase comorbid disorders. I'm wondering if you can explain what comorbid disorders is for our listeners. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Comorbid disorder means having [00:11:00] more than one psychiatric diagnosis. It could be also a medical diagnosis. When we're talking about comorbidities in treating psychiatric conditions, we talked about, for example, somebody having an eating disorder, in the same time having depression, or anxiety, or post traumatic stress disorder or personality disorder. When we look at treating the person, we don't just treat one disorder, [00:11:30] we have to look at the big picture, how's the person in general? We have to look at the medical components. We have to look at psychological component and address what we call a biopsychosocial aspect of the full treatment, full person, basically. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: I like how you say that, to treat the full person. That's profound. I really want to capitalize on your expertise with treating medically complicated eating disorders. [00:12:00] I know a lot of our listeners are intrigued by what the complications are, the eating disorders, but they need to know that there's hope, that many of these complications are reversible. Can you tell me a little bit about what eating disorder complications are reversible versus irreversible? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Well, most complications for eating disorder are reversible and treatable if person returns to a normal weight. Some are actually associate with permanent harm. [00:12:30] \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Jim: The human body is a marvelous machine. It adjusts itself automatically to a lower food intake. Body weight reduces, of course, but also heart size, lung capacity, stomach size. Everything slows down. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Now, consuming fewer calories than your body needs means that the body will break down its own tissue. Muscles are the first organs that are broken down. Most important, the muscle [00:13:00] in the body is the heart. Patients are a risk for heart failure as a result of starvation. Their blood pressure goes down then. Their pulse goes down. Heart damage was ultimately what killed singer Karen Carpenter which is the most common reason for hospitalization in patients with anorexia. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Now sometimes, I want to point this out, because some physicians, without enough education, confuses slow pulse [00:13:30] of an athlete, which is due to a strong, healthy heart with a slow pulse of an eating disorder, which is due to a malnourished heart. Sometimes the low heart rate can be the only symptom that we see before everything falls apart. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: If I were to put that into layman's terms, if you were to take an athlete who was sitting, and then they stand up and walk down the hall, their heart rate should stay pretty low, right? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Absolutely. [00:14:00] \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: Then it gets confusing if someone who has an eating disorder, and their heart is starting to suffer from the eating disorder, if they stand up and walk down the hall, what happens to their heart rate? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Well, their heart rate would actually go up, and they would sometimes say they get dizzy upon sudden position change. That doesn't happen with a healthy athlete. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: Oftentimes it can get confused when they're just sitting and they have a low heart rate? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Absolutely. We call it the walk test. [00:14:30] \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Jim: I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs without stopping to rest once or twice on the way up. I felt like an old man. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: Is that permanent? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Typically, the sooner patient weight is restored, the younger they are, the better. Part of this is also the reason why the family-based treatment is one of the successful individual treatment for young patients with eating disorder, because in these treatments, parents do the heavy lifting for their children who are malnourished. [00:15:00] Research supports that only with full and sustained weight restoration, individuals are able to maintain their own recovery. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: That makes sense. The primary piece that I'm hearing is that first you have to weight restore and make sure that the body gets all the nutrients it needs, and then other things will face in place. Many of these complications are reversible. Is that correct? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Yes, absolutely. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: The primary one that may not be reversible is osteoporosis or osteopenia [00:15:30] depending on how long someone has had anorexia. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Sometimes the extreme low body weight can also cause the body to produce estrogen resulting in a condition called as amenorrhea or no menstrual periods. Low estrogen levels will contribute to significant bone less known as osteopenia and osteoporosis, and put the body at risk for broken bones and fractures. This is one of the irreversible [00:16:00] conditions that could be related to an eating disorder if the patient goes on too long without weight restoration. Studies suggest that low bone mass is common in people with anorexia, and can occur as early as being one year suffering with anorexia nervosa. You can see patients that are 20-year old and they have the bones of an 80-year old, depending on how long they suffer with their eating disorder. [00:16:30] \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Jim: My muscles are almost gone, my bones protruded, and sitting on a hard chair was uncomfortable, even for a few minutes. Most of us carried around pillows to sit on. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Another complication of eating disorder could be the brain atrophy that happens as a result of malnutrition. Sometimes the neurocognitive functioning of the brain could be permanently impaired even though the brain atrophy improves with weight restoration. Which means both [00:17:00] white matter and grey matter can be affected. They can get back to normal with nutrition. However, the functioning is not always 100% back to normal. Even after weight restoration takes place, a normal brain function may not have returned to normal. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>This looks like the menstrual function may be the mediator and the best predictor of cognitive recovery rather than the weight, and that full [00:17:30] cognitive functioning may not return until menstruation has been maintained for at least six month. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: It can take a while for the full cognitive function, but I'm also wondering if the brain is being restored through weight restoration, what's happening to someone's mood during that time? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: As I mentioned earlier in the starvation studies, patients that lose a lot of weight can also suffer with [00:18:00] depression and anxiety. Typically, when patients come in, we don't usually jump on starting them on medication for depression or anxiety because we've seen, especially in young kids, after about a couple of days of eating regularly, we can see their mood getting a little bit better, and their anxiety actually resolving, as well as their sleep getting better. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: That makes so much sense to me because I know if I miss one meal, I get really angry or hangry, right? If someone [00:18:30] is listening to this episode and they're hearing about all these complications, I know some of it is hopeful, because a lot of this is reversible if you get treatment. What advice do you have for people, if they're listening to this and they're struggling with an eating disorder? \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: My advice is to seek help, and aim for full weight restoration and full recovery, because the longer they suffer with an eating disorder, the worse it is to get back to themselves. [00:19:00] \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: Thank you so much for your expertise. I'm so glad that there's doctors out there like you doing this hard work and helping our friends, and our family members, and our listeners heal. Thank you sharing with us. We will certainly link to your books, and we will provide a bio on our website on mentalnotepodcast.com. Thank you so much, Dr. Aldridge. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Dr. Aldridge: Thank you. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>Ellie: [00:19:30] Thank you for listening to Mental Note podcast. Today's special Q&A guest was Dr. Delia Aldridge. She recently joined the team as medical director at Eating Recovery Center in Northbrook, Illinois. This treatment location is close the airport and offers apartments for families from out of town. She and her staff provided all levels of care, and are able to treat adolescents of all genders, ages 10 to 17. Today's conversation was brought to you by Eating Recovery Center and the Insight [00:20:00] Behavioral Health Centers. Places where your journey toward treatment will take into account your whole person and just the symptoms. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n\r\n\u003Cp>If you'd like to talk to a trained therapist to see if treatment can help you, please call 877-411-9578. You can learn more about the people we interview at mentalnotepodcast.com. We'd also love it if you left us a review. It helps others find our podcast. Mental Note is produced by Sam Pike, [00:20:30] edited by Josh Wright and Sam Pike, and I'm Ellie Pike, 'til next time. \u003C\u002Fp>\r\n",["Reactive",3103],{"id":3104,"alt":14,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":3105,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":3106,"is_external_url":177},185357244396776,"https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F1190x1587\u002Ff8cabc2fef\u002Fdelia-aldridge.jpg",{},["Reactive",3108],{"0":2938,"1":3109},"6ed4222a-c244-4e73-b24a-fefc27b26b40",["Reactive",3111],[],["Reactive",3113],[3114],"bcfaecc3-f31b-4e04-b1cf-6b6fb7808f66,6ed4222a-c244-4e73-b24a-fefc27b26b40",["Reactive",3116],{"id":3104,"alt":14,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":3105,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":3117,"is_external_url":177},{},"dr-aldridge-answers-eating-disorder-questions","mental-note-podcast\u002Fdr-aldridge-answers-eating-disorder-questions",-140,["Reactive",3122],[],"bfb4b2d3-cec7-4607-bfcb-215969b0c253","2019-11-12T17:59:43.000Z",["Reactive",3126],[],{"cta":3128,"_uid":3129,"buttons":3130,"eyebrow":14,"heading":3131,"component":2909,"cta_title":14,"resources":3132,"heading_tag":2484,"heading_appearance":2484},{"id":14,"url":14,"linktype":31,"fieldtype":18,"cached_url":14},"c4167380-29c4-4a8f-b612-b3ab7e90bac2",[],"Blogs and Articles",[3133,3187,3243,3292,3327,3503,3557,3769,3866,3945,4022],{"name":3134,"created_at":3135,"published_at":3136,"updated_at":3137,"id":3138,"uuid":3139,"content":3140,"slug":3177,"full_slug":3178,"sort_by_date":67,"position":3179,"tag_list":3180,"is_startpage":177,"parent_id":3182,"meta_data":67,"group_id":3183,"first_published_at":3184,"release_id":67,"lang":201,"path":67,"alternates":3185,"default_full_slug":67,"translated_slugs":67,"_stopResolving":35},"Weight Stigma Unlearning Curriculum","2026-03-12T18:36:40.562Z","2026-09-04T18:09:52.901Z","2026-09-04T18:09:52.912Z",154218498340820,"520a2fbe-d554-4ea1-9dbb-82b0c2beb6b5",{"_uid":3141,"file":3142,"type":3147,"topic":3148,"author":14,"authors":3149,"sources":3151,"summary":3155,"audience":3156,"component":1563,"conditions":3158,"meta_title":14,"reviewed_by":3160,"spanish_file":3162,"updated_date":14,"featured_image":3165,"treatment_types":3170,"meta_description":14,"listing_thumbnail":3172,"special_populations":3175,"clinically_reviewed_date":14},"5b40d39b-7ce1-42db-a04c-d5213dfc0b81",["Reactive",3143],{"id":3144,"alt":14,"name":14,"focus":14,"title":14,"source":14,"filename":3145,"copyright":14,"fieldtype":175,"meta_data":3146,"is_external_url":177},154218658444868,"https:\u002F\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002Fx\u002F84419b6bb3\u002Fweight-stigma-unlearning.pdf",{},"Downloads","Weight Stigma",["Reactive",3150],[],["Reactive",3152],{"type":62,"content":3153},[3154],{"type":65},"This curriculum is designed to guide you through a journey of understanding and unlearning weight stigma. 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She is also the author of The Body Liberation Project. Through her work, Chrissy empowers individuals to stop shrinking, start taking up space, and use their energy to create their specific magic in the world. With degrees in social justice and sociology from Marquette University, Chrissy merges her passion for social justice with her passion for wellness to inspire members of the fitness industry to create spaces that allow individuals from all backgrounds to feel seen, welcomed, affirmed, and celebrated.\u003C\u002Fp>","cce8afb9-b746-46e2-8d48-36b3ad6736dd","Not in UKG","she\u002Fher","staff",[],{"id":3213,"alt":67,"focus":67,"title":67,"filename":3214,"copyright":67,"fieldtype":175,"is_private":177},150629775154526,"https:\u002F\u002Fs3.amazonaws.com\u002Fa.storyblok.com\u002Ff\u002F286555691919486\u002F1284x1582\u002F642cd0bb4d\u002Fchrissy-king-headshot.jpg","chrissy-king","profile\u002Fchrissy-king",-3430,[],148823052330811,"4feb74af-e5a5-4491-a0d2-957f398a3da9","2026-03-02T15:14:10.415Z",[],"Learn more about fat acceptance, from the history of this social justice movement to how you can support fat acceptance in your own 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Bodies Are Good Bodies: How to Reduce the Impact of Weight Stigma on 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(2015). Weight status and DSM-5 diagnoses of eating disorders in adolescents from the community. Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, 54(5), 403-411. ",{"text":3380,"type":71,"marks":3381},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.jaacap.org\u002Farticle\u002FS0890-8567(15)00076-3\u002Ffulltext",[3382],{"type":104,"attrs":3383},{"href":3384,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":16,"linktype":17},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.jaacap.org\u002Farticle\u002FS0890-8567(15)00076-3\u002Fabstract",{"type":2502,"content":3386},[3387],{"type":65,"attrs":3388,"content":3389},{"textAlign":67},[3390,3392],{"text":3391,"type":71},"Harrop, E.N., Mensinger, J.L., Moore, M., & Lindhorst, T. (2021). Restrictive eating disorders in higher weight persons: A systematic review of atypical anorexia nervosa prevalence and consecutive admission literature. International Journal of Eating Disorders, 54(8); 1328-1357. ",{"text":3393,"type":71,"marks":3394},"https:\u002F\u002Fpubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov\u002F33864277\u002F",[3395],{"type":104,"attrs":3396},{"href":3393,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":16,"linktype":17},{"type":2502,"content":3398},[3399],{"type":65,"attrs":3400,"content":3401},{"textAlign":67},[3402,3404],{"text":3403,"type":71},"Gaudiani, J. (2018). Sick enough: A guide to the medical complications of eating disorders. Routledge. ",{"text":3405,"type":71,"marks":3406},"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.routledge.com\u002FSick-Enough-A-Guide-to-the-Medical-Complications-of-Eating-Disorders-and-Undernutrition\u002FGaudiani\u002Fp\u002Fbook\u002F9781041036487",[3407],{"type":104,"attrs":3408},{"href":3405,"uuid":67,"anchor":67,"target":67,"linktype":17},{"type":2502,"content":3410},[3411],{"type":65,"attrs":3412,"content":3413},{"textAlign":67},[3414,3416],{"text":3415,"type":71},"Eating Recovery Center. (n.d.). Atypical anorexia. 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