Ellie Pike:
Today on Mental Note Podcast, we are talking about social media, not just as a cultural phenomenon, but as something shaping the mental health of nearly everyone, especially young people. My guest is Dr. Alyssa Lucker, a psychiatrist who works with children, adolescents, and adults. What's striking is how often this topic comes up in her practice. Parents bring it up, teens bring it up, and it's woven into almost every conversation about well-being. In our talk, we cover what researchers do and don't know yet, how fast platforms change and what makes it hard to study something that's evolving in real time.
We get into the debate about who holds responsibility, parents or the platforms themselves, and Dr. Lucker explains what's happening in the adolescent brain when it collides with an endless stream of likes, videos and notifications. But this isn't a conversation that's only about risk. We also talk about the real benefits, connection, confidence, entertainment, even self-expression, and Dr. Lucker shares her perspective on how families can approach social media with openness, digital literacy and reflection. Asking not just how much time are you spending, but what is this actually doing for you? You're listening to Mental Note podcast. I'm Ellie Pike.
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
My name is Dr. Alyssa Lucker. I'm a child and adolescent as well as adult psychiatrist based out of Denver, Colorado, currently acting as the medical director of Pathlight Mood and Anxiety program, as well as medical director of the Child and Adolescent Unit for Eating Recovery Center.
Ellie Pike:
Well, thank you so much for being here. I invited you to the podcast because I think that you can really provide some amazing education around social media, media literacy, and then how that relates to mental health, both in youth and adults. This is something that I've noticed you speak on and I'm just really looking forward to jumping in. First of all, what made you interested in this topic? Why is this one of your topics that you are passionate about?
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
Yeah, I think for me, why I became so interested in social media, it was coming up in every session, whether it was in the outpatient world, the inpatient world or residential treatment, the adolescents bringing it up about how much their phones and social media meant to them, parents bringing it up, feeling like that was a big trigger point if they tried to limit access, potentially worsening mental health symptoms or behavioral symptoms. And so it felt like I needed to become more informed about this new world we were living in so I could further support patients and their families.
Ellie Pike:
Well, I know that this is going to be really informative for not just folks who are dealing with using media themselves and their own mental health, but also providers out there who are providing guidance to those. And I think a lot of us are walking this ever-changing path and it's really hard to keep up. So I'd really like to start with the research about what do we actually know about social media and how it relates to youth mental health.
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
One of the big things about research around social media is the platforms are consistently changing, which does make it difficult to collect data in a longitudinal matter. I'm learning Facebook is no longer cool anymore, and so even though it's probably one of the older social media platforms, a lot of our adolescent and youth are not using it, and so makes a little bit more difficult to study it. 2023, the Surgeon General released an advisory about social media and mental health. There was some pretty staggering data in there, kind of what they said was about 95% of youth aged 13 to 17 was reporting using social media, and within that, more than a third of the youth were saying they were using social media almost consistently. Interestingly enough, a lot of these social media platforms do in theory, have a minimum age, which is about 13, though with this Surgeon General report, they found that nearly 40% of children ages eight to 12 are using social media as well.
So with this Surgeon General report, I think it showed us that we need to have some more safe gaps in place about how we can support adolescents using that. There's the argument of parental restrictions versus the social media platforms themself providing limitations or restrictions to the adolescents using it. Fall of 2024, Instagram, which is owned by Meta, they launched actually a teen account for users age 13 to 17. And so what differentiates these from other accounts is they're private by default. Only people who are friends will be able to see their contact or interact with the individual on the platform. And then with this, parents also have the ability to see who their teen is messaging, what they're messaging, what they're accessing. So it's kind of a checks and balance of some parental involvement, some of the platform involvement.
There are other individuals who argue, well, parental involvement and parental oversight, that is a breach of privacy, which a lot of these social media platforms are ways for to connect with like-minded individuals, to develop support groups that they might not have access to, to maybe to answer questions about gender identity or things like that, which might be hot topic conversations in a family. And so the fear or worry about more parental involvement on these platforms is are we taking away the access or the support systems for these adolescents if parents see what they're interacting with and don't agree with it?
Ellie Pike:
Well, and that one's really challenging because a natural part of being an adolescent is wanting freedom and to become more individual and independent. So it feels counterintuitive in many ways to have more parental oversight, but without it, that also has its own challenges, which I know we'll talk a lot more about. So anecdotally, my husband and I, my husband's a teacher, we notice a lot of differences between kids who are really immersed in the digital space and those who are not. But I'm curious if there's actually any known effects on the brain based on their social media usage or tech use like gaming. And I don't know if that's something that you could speak to.
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
I've looked into this a decent amount in the sense of separating electronic media use from social media use. And there is a lot of research because, so electronic media, we think TVs, we think computers, they have been around for a while. And I think the most important thing with that, that I have seen is being mindful of the content that people are exposed to. It really needs to be age appropriate. When it is age appropriate content, then there is the ability for toddlers, for children, for adolescents to learn, especially from a social emotional standpoint. If something is too mature for them, they're not going to be able to understand or process what they're experiencing. And so that could potentially have negative consequences. We also are really mindful during the early adolescent age, that's identity development. That's where they're developing their sense of worth. Brain development is really happening too.
And so being mindful of they're just more sensitive to the content they're seeing, to social pressures, to pure opinions, peer comparison, and so frequent social media use potentially can have distinct changes in the development of the brain. Specifically if we think of the amygdala, which is an area in the brain for, think emotional learning behavior, kind of that fight or flight response, those intense emotions. So it can potentially have an impact on that emotion center. And then the front of our brain, which is called the prefrontal cortex, which is kind of impulse control, emotional regulation. And so if we are on platforms that are kind of consistently triggering those areas, not wanting to say that those areas won't develop appropriately or properly, though there could be an impact on how they develop in the sense of maybe leaving individuals more sensitive.
Sometimes with consistent exposure to social media, we have this heightened sensitivity to actions and to reactions, and we can take that into the world we live in. So for example, if I were walking down the hallway and someone didn't smile at me, maybe my mind immediately goes to, "Oh my goodness, they're mad at me. I did something wrong. They're judging me." Versus maybe the person just didn't see me. So I am processing the situation differently potentially because of my background and what I've been exposed to.
Ellie Pike:
Thank you so much for running through some of those pieces because I think there are so many challenges that could arise, especially with someone in their identity formation stage who is using social media. But then there's also potential benefits of social media and digital connection, which I think we all found during the pandemic as an example where there were times that we all felt really lonely, and I know we celebrated my daughter's birthday over Zoom, et cetera. And so I think speaking a little bit to potential benefits would be really beneficial for me as we continue this conversation.
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
Yeah, I would say we have to weigh the risk versus benefit with anything we're engaging in. And so looking at the potential benefits of interactive media, social media, if we start at the school age, five, 11 years old, Ericsson's stages of development, that group of individuals is really industry versus inferiority. And so through social interactions, children are able to develop a sense of pride and accomplishments and abilities. They're able to develop competence, belief in their ability to handle tasks and develop a pride in theirself. And so that's something that potentially could be fostered through social media. A lot of people have YouTube channels and if they're getting feedback like, "Hey, what you posted was great," or, "We learned a lot," that's going to build up an individual's self-esteem. If we look at the adolescent from Ericsson's stages of development, that's identity versus role confusion.
Who am I? What am I, what do I like? What are my beliefs? What are my values? And so they can use social media as a way of self-expression. Studies have shown that teens report feeling less shy, more outgoing, more confident, maybe even more popular and better about themselves engaging on social media platforms where maybe they don't feel that way in person. Maybe they don't have the group of people where they can act or interact with. And so the importance of peer influence, obviously being mindful if the peer influence is perceived as positive or negative, but if it's positive, that can be a huge part of adolescent development.
I think no matter what age we are, potential benefit of social media would be networking. Provides people to feel connected. I am from a rural town in Iowa of 2000 people, not a lot of diversity, not a lot of different people with different backgrounds. And so social media would open the world to someone from my hometown in this sense of interacting with people from around the world, it can be entertaining. That in itself can be benefit. It's fun. You can laugh, you can see videos, you can experience places that maybe you wouldn't have been able to experience before.
Ellie Pike:
I really love how you spoke to that piece and the entertainment piece because a lot of the entertainment piece is also something that we all share. You see something, you share it with others or something goes viral, and there's still a shared experience in our real world that happened online. So it gets complicated and convoluted, especially if you're the one not using that platform. So I'm sure a lot of families ask you this question because you know the research better than a lot of us do. I want to know what's advised? What is the answer? Is it parental control? Is it more safety regulations? Is it self-regulation even, right, expecting teens to have a better idea of what mindful usage would really look like?
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
Yeah, that's a great question. And the surgeon general warning, that came out in 2023, really it was a balance between the parental control and the social media platforms control on how we support individuals engaging on these platforms. If we look at the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatrists or the American Academy of Pediatricians, they have different guidelines about how we should be using social media. Are there time limits? There's not really a consensus. So the professional associations, they might have differences in recommendations for time, though at the end of the day, they all pretty much agree, it's really about the content, the purpose of the use. What are we getting out of it? That's what we need to be mindful of. And then that comes back to age appropriate content. There have been studies that show actually interestingly enough that FaceTime or video chat, if we use that in toddlers or in infants, and you're doing that and engaging with family members, that is an opportunity for them to learn facial expressions, interactions with others.
Obviously doing this with the guidance of parents or loved ones. So content and quality of the social media platform we're engaging on is the most important thing. There are some questions that you can ask yourself to try to decide, is my electronic media use interfering with day-to-day life? Am I okay? It's things about looking at your sleep. Is it disrupting your sleep? Are you on these platforms all night long and not getting any sleep and then not able to go to work or late for school? Are you still eating well, getting enough nutrition? Are you leaving the house? Are you being social? Are you still engaging in activities that bring you joy outside of these media platforms? Are you able to go to work? Are you able to go to school? Are you able to continue to function in your day-to-day life? And then are you still being physically active? As we know, that is very important to maintain a healthy lifestyle. And so thinking maybe 30 to 60 minutes of social media per day is probably kind of the optimal to maintain mental health. Sometimes when it goes past that, we can see potentially negative consequences.
Ellie Pike:
You just provided me so much information that I'm really intrigued to think about because if someone's using the content to look at, "Hey, I want to do these woodworking pieces or this craft that's really amazing," versus something that's like weight loss focused or body sculpting or things that could really impact someone's own perception of their own body or their own physical or mental self, those are really different pieces of content that may not be age appropriate. Another thing I wanted to mention, it took me quite a few years to learn this, is that we can actually control the type of ads that we get. And I think that that's a really important piece for users and for parents also to understand is that there is some ability to control what kind of content is coming through to us that we're not seeking out, and that might be an important piece in regulating for ourselves. So how does adult mental health show similarities or differences to youth mental health data related to digital media usage or social media?
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
So children, adolescents show stronger, potentially more nuanced variables to social media effect, and it's because of developmental sensitivity. Really brains are not fully developed until early twenties, maybe mid-twenties. And so that peer dynamic, that feedback they're getting from social media can potentially correlate with increased mental health symptoms if they're getting feedback that they perceive as harmful or negative. Whereas studies show that potentially adults might benefit more from interaction and use of social media from the connection and information sharing, since adults' brains are fully formed, maybe less sensitive to the peer dynamics or what is being shared on social media that might be perceived as negative.
Ellie Pike:
So one thing I've noticed that you say a lot about is mindful usage or mindful content based on developmental stages. And another keyword that we haven't really talked about yet is the word digital literacy. That's two words actually. So I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about what digital literacy is and why it matters?
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
Yeah, so digital literacy honestly was a new term for me when I started deep diving into social media and electronic media use. And basically what it means is the ability to appropriately use information and communication technologies and using those technologies to be able to find, evaluate, create, and communicate information. I would say a lot of the academic institutions are emphasizing the importance of digital literacy and that happening potentially in a school platform, teaching adolescents, how do you interact in a world where there's going to be electronic media? This is now the world we live in. And so it's not avoiding it. It's not a shutting it down, it's not a getting rid of it's a how do we live with it in a way that we can use it to our benefit and maintain a healthy relationship with it.
So ultimately, digital literacy helps people be mindful consumers of the information they're finding on the platforms. It makes you question maybe critically what you're interacting with and how you're interacting with. For example, who is posting the content, what are they trying to get across to you? What do they want you to learn? What are you learning from it? Is there underlying bias? Is there facts to the information that's being posted? So really, how are you consuming the information you find on electronic media platforms? And then how are you using that information to further your knowledge and then potentially to also further educate what you are posting on social media or electronic media platforms?
Ellie Pike:
Well, and to add to the piece of digital literacy about how to live with these platforms. One thing we haven't really talked about yet is artificial intelligence referred to as AI, and it is still really in its infancy, especially when it comes to how it's related to the behavioral health or mental health world. So just in general, very general question here. I'm sure you've received some questions from families about how do I engage with this tool or could this tool be used as a therapy tool or even as a therapist, what would your one kind of simple piece of advice be for those folks asking those questions?
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
With the surgence of artificial intelligence, it has also come into the mental health field. There are chatbots, there are applications. There have even been FDA now cleared video games for ADHD. And so I will say frequently when we work with individuals, the question comes up, how can artificial intelligence be a part of my treatment? For me, whenever I'm answering this question for individuals I work with, wanting to be mindful of what is the platform and what is the goal of the platform? And if it's one where you're just typing questions and hoping to receive an answer might not be the most to use that as a therapist or someone to help you in treatment with your mental health, though there are some applications out there that, like I said, the FDA has cleared or approved that might be safer to interact with at this time.
Ellie Pike:
An example that comes to my mind that someone just brought up would be a tool that would help someone order their steps if they struggle with executive functioning, for example. And to me, that's an incredible use of an AI tool where it's like, "Hey, I'm having trouble. These are the things I need to do today. Can you help me order my steps so I can actually accomplish them?" That sounds really amazing. Versus something that could be much more of an interactive tool like a coach or a quote unquote AI therapist, I would have a lot of questions about. So I like how you're providing us with some practical tools to really examine who's creating it, what's the purpose, how would we use it, and is it really beneficial for our health?
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
Yeah, and I would guess just with time, all of this more information will come out about the potential positives and negatives and how it can help us.
Ellie Pike:
So I know you already talked about some of the signs that we might look to indicate if our level of screen time is not serving as well. Am I still going out? Am I really interacting with people in person, or am I just online? What are some signs that might actually indicate our mental health is suffering and that maybe we might actually need some support from a therapist or additional care from others?
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
So the biggest thing that I look for with the potential of interactive media having negative impact on our mental health is functioning. Has functioning appreciably changed? In the standpoint of are you keeping a routine? Are you eating? Are you exercising? Are you able to go to school? Are you able to go to your job? How is your focus? How is your concentration? Are you interacting with loved ones? Are you interacting with friends? Are things that you used to do bringing you joy? And those are basically things that we're looking for, for depression, for anxiety, and ultimately if there's any change in that, a change in your baseline functioning, and we can potentially correlate that to an increase in electronic media use, that's when I like to have a conversation with the people I'm working with and really try to understand, okay, what are we getting out of this? And now that we sit down and reflect, is this actually beneficial to us?
Ellie Pike:
I think that one of my greatest takeaways is that there's just a lot of self-reflection that needs to happen in order to identify what kind of tools and digital pieces are useful to us and to our families. And I think the second piece that we maybe haven't explicitly said, having open conversations is really beneficial in this process because it's not a one size fits all. Every family is going to be different. Every individual is going to use these digital tools differently. And I think a lot of open communication is really helpful if we can help our young ones and our family self-reflect to say, "Do I feel good after my screen time? How does my brain feel?" That is one thing that we do ask our kids like, "Hey, you just watched a movie and now you're asking to watch another one, but how does your brain feel? Have you looked outside? Have you been outside recently? Oh, look, your friends are out there playing. We might be missing out if we actually watched another movie."
So of course there's a parental role in that of helping dictate what feels appropriate within each family. But I do think there's a self-reflective tool that could be really beneficial that we can teach our kids from even a young age. And we're noticing the differences in that regard. Even with our six-year-old, she'll self-reflect and say, "I think I've had enough for today." And it might be 10 minutes one day, it might be none the next day. It might be an hour and a half the next day. But just to help her identify for herself what feels good and what doesn't, I think could be a game changer because she'll find access one day if she wants to have access, which I'm sure you've seen.
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
I am so glad you brought that up. Communication and curiosity is key from day one. What are we getting out of our usage? What feelings are popping up? Why do we like to use these things? Being vulnerable as adults and then showing your loved ones that they can be vulnerable, that they can come to you and be like, "Hey, I had this interaction and it didn't feel good and it made me sad." And then they know that you'll actually talk it out with them and process it and it won't be a, "I told you not to get on that. Of course, this is what happened."
Also too, mirroring. Adolescents, children, they look up to their caregivers and they're going to mirror behaviors at their caregivers show. So if the caregivers are on their phone during meal, the adolescent and child is going to say, "Oh, this is okay. My parents are doing this. I can do this." Or if they're on the phone while we're watching TV or we get up in the morning and the first thing we do is reach for a phone and start scrolling, they're going to build that internal structure dialogue like this is okay behavior. And so being mindful as adults, you consistently have eyes on you. What you do matters, and-
Ellie Pike:
I agree with you, what we do matters, and that is a key piece for me that I can pay attention to more too, where I notice I might be looking just for a recipe, but to my people around me, it doesn't look like that. It just looks like I'm not being present with them. So finding those moments where I could maybe pull out a recipe book instead of looking at my phone might change just those small moments in the day where our experience could be more present with each other. So thank you Dr. Lucker, you're amazing. I'm really grateful for all this research that you brought to the podcast. So what do you feel like is the one message you hope folks will gain from this episode?
Dr. Alyssa Lucker:
The biggest takeaway is being able to live with electronic media as a fact of life, and so understanding how we can live with it in a way that adds to our life versus takes away from it.
Ellie Pike:
I've been sitting with this conversation for a few weeks now, and there's something that lingers for me. Dr. Lucker named benefits like self-expression, building confidence and feeling less alone. But I can't help but wonder, are those things ever truly better online than they are in person? Because when I think about my own kids, I want their self-esteem to grow from the people right in front of them, friends, teachers, mentors, people who actually know them and have their best interest at heart, not from a group of strangers who may validate them one day and tear them down the next. So I leave this conversation still holding a question. Is social media just a normal and necessary part of socializing in 2025? Or is it a kind of poor substitute? Better than nothing, sure, but not where we should be investing most of our energy.
We never said the word addiction in this interview, but it was there in Dr. Lucker's reflections. The idea that if your use of social media gets in the way of your sleep, your nutrition, your friendships, your daily life, then it is time to take a hard look. I don't have the final answer, and maybe that's not the point. Social media is here to stay. The real question is how we choose to live with it, whether it pulls us away from life or whether it can somehow be used to enhance it. Thanks for listening to Mental Note Podcast. Our show is brought to you by Eating Recovery Center and Pathlight Mood and Anxiety Center. If you'd like to talk to a trained therapist to see if in-person or virtual treatment is right for you, please call them at 877-850-7199.
If you need a free support group, check out PathlightBH.com/support-groups. Also, could you do us a quick favor? Leave a glowing review for us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to sign up for our e-newsletter and learn more about the people we interview at MentalNotePodcast.com. Doing these things helps our show grow and we are so grateful for your effort. Mental Note is produced and hosted by me, Ellie Pike, edited by Carrie Daniels and directed by Sam Pike. Till next time.
