OCD

Transcript

Mimi Cole:
With OCD, I started to read about it. I remember spending such a long time going through these Instagram accounts where it was so validating and educational about the different themes that I experienced and the different thoughts that I had had, and to know that other people experienced them and that there was a reason or a name for what they were was just so healing.

Ellie Pike:
Everyone's journey to robust mental health looks incredibly different. For the North Carolina activist and student, Mimi Cole, Instagram proved a critical gateway to finding treatment and community.

Mimi Cole:
Hi, my name is Mimi Cole and I am currently a graduate student pursuing my master's degree in clinical rehabilitation and mental health counseling, which is kind of a mouthful.

Ellie Pike:
Mimi received a diagnosis of OCD in her late teens. Soon after, she got involved in mental health awareness in the same place she first found better access to care, social media. She now runs The Lovely Becoming, a podcast series and social media resource with a mission to communicate that nobody needs to suffer alone through frightening thoughts and debilitating shame. Today, we talk with Mimi about her story and discover what it reveals about an often misunderstood disorder.

Ellie Pike:
You're listening to Mental Note Podcast. I'm Ellie Pike. Fantastic. Well, we're so happy to have you on the show. You're quite an advocate, and you have such an amazing voice and way of talking about mental health. And today we're primarily going to be talking about your experience with obsessive-compulsive disorder, or what most people call just OCD. So Mimi, what is your experience with OCD like?

Mimi Cole:
Yeah, so I had intrusive thoughts and some... I remember earlier memories of having some compulsive behaviors when I was a kid, but it really kind of flared up when I was about 14 when I started high school. And so I had really bad intrusive thoughts about my religion, about driving, and was really worried about doing the wrong thing, saying the wrong thing, et cetera. And that's when I started having an eating disorder as well, but that's a whole nother story.

Mimi Cole:
So with OCD, I wasn't actually diagnosed until just over two years ago. And so it was really incredible to get to have a name for what I was experiencing and to know that other people felt it too and had these thoughts that were so opposite to their values and belief systems. And so it's been such a healing experience to find out there's a treatment for it and there's a way to heal from it.

Ellie Pike:
You have such a hopeful story, and I think it's so important to share those hopeful stories about understanding what OCD is, and how to get help and what life can look like afterwards. Because I imagine when you're in those moments and you have those intrusive thoughts, you probably just feel like no one else can understand because it's such a wild experience from what I understand from other lived experiences. So can you talk a little bit about when you started having intrusive thoughts, especially related to religion? What would those thoughts say to you, and what did it feel like?

Mimi Cole:
Yeah, so definitely a big one for me was the fear of going to hell. And so in Christianity, there's this belief that if you accept Jesus into your heart, which is a very abstract concept, that you will be saved from eternal punishment. And so I had this vivid imagery in my brain of flames and of gnashing teeth, and I very much had a lot of fear around it, even though I was, quote unquote, saved. And so even when other people would say, "Do you know where you're going? Do you know that you're safe and secure?"

Mimi Cole:
I would pray again and again and again, obsessively, to be okay, and to seek safety and reassurance in certainty, which is really a big part of OCD, is trying to seek certainty that things are going to be okay and to go, I guess, according to plan. And so with religion, I also would be encouraged by church because I was really good at being good. And so sometimes they would say, "Make sure you're praying constantly."

Mimi Cole:
And I really took that to heart and every second was like, I can't do my homework right now because I'm supposed to be praying constantly, or just getting really upset when I thought of a curse word and didn't even say it out loud. And I was like, well, I've been taught that thinking it is the same as doing it, and so all my thoughts must be bad and I need to take every thought captive. And so it's really quite a culture that can fuel OCD, especially if you don't know what it is and that you're experiencing it.

Ellie Pike:
So the category of OCD that you're describing that first came up for you is defined, I think, as religious scrupulosity, one of the sub categories of OCD. And I know for a lot of people, when they try to wrap their heads around OCD, most people think of contamination fears or fears of germs, but there's multiple kinds of categories, right? So did you any other kinds of intrusive thoughts?

Mimi Cole:
Yes, I did, especially around driving. So there's something called hit and run OCD, where you're worried that that bump in the road or the ridge or groove or whatever is a person that you've hit, and you have this very strong urge to go back and check. And so I remember sitting outside one day, and I called my dad. And my school, it was about 45 minutes away, and so I was just waiting and thinking, do I need to put a note? Do I need to call the police to tell them I hit someone's car?

Mimi Cole:
And when he came, he was like, "I don't see anything. You didn't hit anyone." And it was just such an overwhelming feeling of like, what is going on with me that I think that I've hit people or scratched their car and feel this compulsive need to apologize for something that didn't actually happen? And I think that a really big part of OCD is this fear that you're going crazy, that you're going to go through a psychotic break or episode, and it's really just so rooted in this desire to keep other people and ourselves safe.

Ellie Pike:
To get a clinician's perspective, I reached out to Dr. Charles Brady, a leading expert on OCD.

Dr. Charles Brady:
I'm Dr. Charles Brady. I'm a clinical psychologist who specializes in the treatment of OCD and OCD conditions, including panic, social phobia, and other OCD-related disorders. I currently practice in Silverdale, Washington at Kitsap OCD & Anxiety Services. Prior to this, I was on the faculty at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, where I worked at the Lindner Center of HOPE leading their OCD and anxiety treatment services.

Ellie Pike:
Fantastic. Thank you so much, Dr. Brady, for joining our episode and providing some additional education around OCD. Can you start by speaking about some of the common myths and misperceptions about OCD?

Dr. Charles Brady:
One of the biggest myths is that OCD is kind of a cute little disorder. Unfortunately, there have been some portrayals in the media where people play up what appear to be almost the humorous side, the quirky side of OCD behaviors. But what many people fail to understand is the absolute suffering that OCD can bring into a person's life. For instance, OCD, when it's not treated, can basically incapacitate a person.

Dr. Charles Brady:
And when we compare it to other medical illnesses, and not just psychiatric illnesses, but cardiac illnesses, seizure disorders, it's the ninth leading cause of disability for working age adults in the world. So when it hits, it tends not to hit gently, and it can really wreak devastation on a person's life. It also, in a sense, is something that doesn't typically just show up by itself. When a person has OCD, it's very common that as they struggle with OCD and have such a hard time controlling their thoughts and behaviors, it's very common to see depression pop up.

Dr. Charles Brady:
Matter of fact, about two-thirds of patients with OCD end up struggling with depression. And when we look at when their depression arrives, two-thirds of the time, it arrives after the OCD has shown up. So it's not a cute, quirky little disorder. It's one that is very debilitating. And it's also not rare, which is one of the things people think, that oh, it's just a rare disorder. Very few people are affected by it.

Dr. Charles Brady:
But if you look at the statistics, anywhere between two and three percent of the American population will suffer from OCD at some point in their lifetime. There's very high probability that folks listening to this podcast know folks who suffer with OCD, whether or not that person has disclosed to them or not. But it is that common of a condition and an illness.

Ellie Pike:
In Mimi's case, she talks about how horrible it was to have intrusive thoughts, and I can only imagine that that really does lend itself to some depressive tendencies, because it feels like those thoughts are really out of control. Would you be able to highlight and provide some examples of what intrusive thoughts are and what that feels like for someone?

Dr. Charles Brady:
An intrusive thought is basically thoughts that enter our mind that we don't invite into it. Now, they can have many flavors. All of us throughout the day will have occasional positive intrusive thoughts. You might think out of the blue, you think of your best friend from sixth grade, and you have no idea why you're thinking of him or her, but those thoughts don't cause distress. The thoughts that cause distress for folks with OCD are negative intrusive thoughts. And they almost always begin with the two little words, what if?

Dr. Charles Brady:
What if I didn't lock my door? What if I said something to offend that person that I met in that meeting? What if I've done something that's going to cause me to go to hell? What if I have a sudden urge while I'm driving to swerve into oncoming traffic? Now, these negative intrusive thoughts, actually, we all have them. That's one thing that people fail to understand about OCD, is that the content of the thoughts, they're really not different from the content of thoughts that everyone has.

Dr. Charles Brady:
But what happens to a person with OCD, because of the biological condition of the brain, when they have those thoughts, it hits basically a huge alarm button in the brain that creates a sense of terror, it creates a jolt. For the person who doesn't have OCD, they might have that thought and they can brush that thought off, saying, "Oh, [inaudible 00:11:53] little thought." And they barely even notice it because it hasn't pressed any alarm button.

Dr. Charles Brady:
But when the person with OCD has that thought, it creates a huge alarm reaction, and that alarm reaction causes pain. And it's that pain that then gets the person to say, "Hey, I have to do something to deal with this. I have to do something to neutralize this thought. I need to do something to make certain that this what if thought doesn't come true." And that's where they start to bring compulsions in. They try to do the compulsions to neutralize the thought, to gain a sense of certainty that the bad thing won't happen, that that what if statement never comes true?

Ellie Pike:
I like the term, a sense of certainty. Is that essentially what all of these OCD behaviors are, they're an effort to create a sense of certainty around these obsessions and intrusive thoughts?

Dr. Charles Brady:
Yeah, absolutely. That's one thing I've seen over 30 years, and many folks in the field write about this and talk about this, is that one of the greatest difficulties a person with OCD has is struggling to accept that uncertainty exists, that it's almost as if the OCD is trying to push them to get certainty in situations where certainty can't be had. So when we try to figure out something from the past, did I say something in my 10 o'clock meeting this morning that offended anyone, just trying to remember.

Dr. Charles Brady:
The more you try to remember, the more confusing it gets. Or if you leave your house, trying to remember, did I check the front door lock? Did I make sure the deadbolt's on? Oftentimes, the more and more you try to make yourself certain about it, the more doubt you start to have, and even to the point where you can be standing right in front of the deadbolt, looking at it, wondering, is that really in the vertical position and locked? And that doubt starts to creep in because that feeling of uncertainty can be overwhelming.

Ellie Pike:
Mimi told me that realizing other folks still have intrusive thoughts was really helpful in allowing her to find peace in her own mind.

Mimi Cole:
What I learned is that everybody has intrusive thoughts, whether they might vary per person in theme, but what happens for someone who doesn't have OCD, maybe they might have a thought like, what if I drove over a cliff, or what if I drop this baby? And they might say, "You know what? That's a crazy thought. I'm going to move on, and I don't know where that came from." But someone with OCD might say, "What does that say about me? Maybe I should pass this child on to someone else so I don't drop them. Maybe I shouldn't drive at all, because what if I drive over a cliff?" And they get stuck in this loop of obsessing over, what does that say about me? Am I going to be okay? Am I going to lose control over my ability to function and choose what I do with my body and myself?

Ellie Pike:
Thank you so much for normalizing some of those thoughts, because I know there are moments when I'm on a drive where I'm like, wow, what would happen if I just accidentally turned my wheel and I went over the edge? And I can have those thoughts, but you're right. It's easier just to let it go and be like, wow, that was such a wild thought I just had. Versus, it sounds like rumination is a really key piece for someone who actually struggles with OCD.

Mimi Cole:
Absolutely. Yes.

Ellie Pike:
So for you, you started this journey, and then you were suffering in silence for a while. What did it look like for you when you were in high school and as these thoughts continued to develop?

Mimi Cole:
Yeah, so I thought that I was doing something wrong in my religion, and so I would just pray more, read my Bible more obsessively. I started bringing it around everywhere I went, trying to be more faithful and more good. And I just would cry at night a lot and just beg God, like, "Please, please don't send me to hell. Please help me to be better." And so a lot of tears and a lot of just suffering and shame in silence for a long time. I think it looked like isolation as well. I think mixed with an eating disorder, it was a really terrible time in my life. And I just didn't have the language to understand what was going on in my head and in my body, and so it was a really difficult time.

Ellie Pike:
It sounds so challenging. And I know a lot of people can relate. Whether or not they end up with an eating disorder, I think a lot of people with OCD can relate with some of the tendencies that may arrive with food. Can you speak to that a little bit, about how that started to shift for you and how you viewed food as your OCD was worsening?

Mimi Cole:
Yeah, so I also have experienced contamination OCD and orthorexia nervosa, which is an obsession with clean or healthy or right eating. And I think those kind of came together, the eating disorder and OCD, in the form of this obsession with clean eating. And so I would eat by myself sometimes because I didn't want to be near the, quote, bad foods, or I would prepare things to eat before I went to parties, if I went at all, or friends' gatherings and things like that.

Mimi Cole:
And so I was very anxious a lot. And the compulsions, or I guess the obsessions, were about whether the food was bad, or whether it would make me feel sick, or whether it would make me gain weight. And the compulsions were to prepare foods a certain way, to avoid certain other foods, and to get my family as well on board with this clean eating lifestyle. And so that's kind of how the eating disorder played into the OCD.

Ellie Pike:
In one of our previous conversations, you mentioned ego-dystonic as a word for OCD and it meaning something along the lines of the opposite of your values. Can you speak to that a little bit and what that has been like for you as you process that for yourself?

Mimi Cole:
Absolutely. That's such an important and key term and distinguisher from a lot of other disorders and thought patterns. And so ego-dystonic, like you said, means it's opposite to your beliefs and values. And so an individual with OCD does not want to have the thoughts that they have and does not want to use compulsions, and the intrusive thoughts that they have are very much not in alignment with their values, which is why part of treatment can be acceptance and commitment therapy and defining and understanding your values, because sometimes OCD's values kind of get mixed up with your own, and you start to think, am I a bad person?

Mimi Cole:
Am I a person who likes the thoughts that I have? Et cetera, et cetera. And so it's really important to do values work, but it's also important to recognize that if you, for example, like being clean and organized, that's very different than someone who feels the need to be deeply clean and deeply organized and uses cleaning or perfectionism, for example, as a compulsion. And so it's kind of a tricky distinction.

Mimi Cole:
Sometimes people get wrapped up in, well, I want to be safe, and I wish I had OCD during a pandemic, et cetera, which is really unhelpful because someone who compulsively washes their hands usually till they feel it's clean and feel it's right, which is less of, I know it's clean because the CDC said to wash for 30 seconds, and usually sometimes there's hand bleeding or there's dryness of the hands because you're washing so much and it doesn't feel right to you.

Ellie Pike:
That sounds really distressing to be in that actual mindset of contamination fears. And I think that you're right in saying that society really does talk about OCD as almost this positive thing, like, "I wish I had OCD because then I would be more," yada yada, clean is what most people think of. So I think that we have a lot of work to do to help the world understand what OCD is and then also de-stigmatize it for those who actually struggle with it, and help people really understand what OCD is and just how hard it is to live with. Let's go back into your story of, you suffered in silence for five, six years. What shifted for you and what allowed you to start talking about it and to also get help?

Mimi Cole:
Yeah. I remember when I was in early college, I had a meeting with a psychologist, and she gave me a test for OCD. And I remember I distinctly lied about two or three of the questions, and I just missed the criteria for OCD. And she was like, "I think you have anxiety, but it kind of looks like OCD." And in that moment, I was like, no, this is definitely exactly what I'm going through, but I was too embarrassed to say my actual symptoms. And so after a while, I thought to myself, this sounds like OCD. I started thinking about it, but I didn't get an actual diagnosis, which I think is such an important thing, but also has a lot of nuance to it.

Mimi Cole:
So I'm going to jump on a tangent for a second about diagnoses. Diagnosis is really important because while not everyone has access to a diagnosis, it's really not helpful sometimes for people to go around saying, "Well, I have OCD, and I have OCD," when you don't know that, or you don't actually... not necessarily meet the criteria, but have that lived experience of intrusive thoughts and compulsive cycles, because then you're doing harm by saying, "This is what OCD looks like." It's a really tricky process, so there's a lot of acknowledgements of the different ways that it can show up.

Ellie Pike:
So when you talk about ERP or Exposure Response Prevention therapy, it's a modality that a lot of people use when working with individuals with OCD. Can you give me an example of what that actually meant in practical terms for you, maybe even pertaining to your fear of going to hell or not praying enough?

Mimi Cole:
Absolutely. So one exposure that I did was that I told my therapist over and over again, "I might go to hell." And he just said, "That's very true. You might go to hell." And I just had to sit with the anxiety and be like, "Oh my gosh, why won't you reassure me and tell me that it's going to be okay, that I'm not going to hell?" But the thing about reassurance is that it fuels OCD because you want certainty, but when you get it, usually it doesn't stick.

Mimi Cole:
And so I think part of the goal of ERP is not necessarily to say, "I won't go to hell," but to say, "I'm okay with living life in accordance with my values, not knowing the answer." And I think that is a really hard thing, especially for people who identify as religious, because they're always asking, "Are you certain of where you're going? Do you have certainty around the end?" And things like that. And I think part of recovery from OCD specifically is learning to tolerate that uncertainty and sit with these feelings because we just don't know. We can do what we can, but we will never really know until it happens.

Dr. Charles Brady:
The goal, quite simply, is to help the person learn that they can accept uncertainty. Because when they're having OCD, their mind is telling them that in this particular situation, on this topic, you can't accept certainty. And what the ironic part is, the topic that their OCD focuses on is usually something that they value so much. You can tell a person, what they value the most based on what their OCD attacks. So if what they value the most is their own health and wellbeing, they might develop a germ phobia. If what they value most is their relationship with God, you might have religious scrupulosity that the OCD attacks.

Dr. Charles Brady:
So what the treatment does, primarily in addition to the medications that can be helpful, there's cognitive behavioral therapy, using either or both exposure and response prevention or techniques from acceptance and commitment therapy. Basically what we're looking to do in both is, we're giving the person the opportunity to experience something that they typically would avoid, and we invite them to reduce the compulsion that they're doing, to do either a weaker form of the compulsion or to not do it at all, and to allow them to experience the distress so that the brain will actually recalibrate itself. And they start to expand their life once again.

Mimi Cole:
But yes, it's a really hard thing. It's been over maybe 200 hours of ERP for me to be able to come to this place, so it's been a long time coming.

Ellie Pike:
For Mimi and lots of people working through OCD, Exposure Response Prevention can look downright strange from an outsider's perspective.

Mimi Cole:
Yeah, so this is going to sound crazy, but I think it's the funniest one to me and the wildest exposure I've probably done, but my therapist actually had me bump into him with my car. And so we went out and did that in public. So there I was in my car, inching towards him because I was so anxious and nervous that I would run him over. And he was like, "Closer." And so it was a really unique exposure because I didn't know what it was like to hit someone. I've never hit someone before that I know of, but I'm accepting that uncertainty.

Mimi Cole:
And so he really wanted me to get used to... not used to in the sense of I'm going to go around hitting people, but the difference between a bump in the road and a person. And so sometimes exposures can be a little more practical like that, where you do want to learn a distinction between actually hitting someone and what the bump in the road feels like, but you don't want to give too much reassurance that, "See, you didn't hit someone. It was just a bump in the road." But you want to be safe, and people with OCD aren't going around hitting people and running away. They're usually very, very cautious and very anxious about driving, but I think there has to be that reality piece as well.

Ellie Pike:
Thank you so much for these examples. It really helps it come to life. And I think about one of my good friends who went through the same type of therapy, and his fear was, "What if I do something wrong? What will people think of me?" And his exposure that was assigned to him by his therapist was to pull up to a stoplight, and when it's red, he sits there just like every other car, and then when it goes green, to stay sitting there. And then all these other cars are going by, and they are honking, and he is sitting there sweating bullets, because that's exactly his fear, and it's really scary for him.

Ellie Pike:
And then it doesn't stop there. He has to watch the light cycle again so that it goes to red, and then it goes to green, and he has to stay there again and experience it again over and over again. And the way he described it was, he's sweating bullets on the first time, and then by the third, and then the fourth time, believe it or not, he actually was like, "Okay, I can handle this. My fear is starting to dissolve the more I expose myself to that high anxiety." And it was a really hard exposure. I think that would be hard for any of us, even if we don't have OCD.

Ellie Pike:
But it's such a great example of how sometimes when we do the opposite of what we think we should do, it might actually help expose us in the correct way to our anxiety to lessen it. So your examples are very similar, where I'm like, that sounds really scary and really hard. And so I think it takes a lot of courage to engage in this type of therapy, and it is definitely not for the faint-hearted, but you had to have known that the reward was better than the disorder itself. And so I'm curious what those values were that you were able to connect to that really gave you the hope to keep going with this really tough process.

Mimi Cole:
I really value compassion for myself and others. I value bravery. I also value a sense of understanding other people, and open-mindedness to doing new things and trusting other people.

Ellie Pike:
Those are incredible values, and I can see how that would really carry you through this process and help keep things in perspective, especially when you're wrestling with your own mind. You've done a lot of treatment for OCD. You've become a mental health influencer, especially on Instagram, and you're such an advocate for just raising awareness and de-stigmatizing mental health issues. So what are some of the messages that you just hope to get across to the general public?

Mimi Cole:
Yes. Definitely what OCD is and what it isn't, to help people understand that they're not alone in the thoughts that scare them is kind of my motto, to help people understand that they don't have to stick to their old belief systems, and they can learn new things about themselves and trust themselves and find home in their bodies. And I think most of all, I just want people to know that those thoughts that scare them and those shameful things that they don't want to share with the world or with any other person, I guarantee you someone else is experiencing the same thing, and that you can be met with compassion for where you're at.

Mimi Cole:
And so it is tricky because I've been lucky enough to have some really great therapists, and not every therapist is awesome, and so really finding people that you trust, and finding an OCD specialist if intrusive thoughts are really hard for you, because otherwise, sometimes therapists who are well-meaning and well-intentioned might think that those thoughts are ego-syntonic or in alignment with your values when they're really not. And so, yeah, that's what I'd have to say.

Ellie Pike:
That's such just encouraging information for everyone to know that they're not alone, and then also where to start getting help. And I think a key piece in this journey is that OCD doesn't just mean that everything goes away and becomes better once you get treatment or go through thee process of exposures. So can you speak a little bit to what life is like now for you, and what anxiety looks like for you and how you identify it, and how you support your mental health now?

Mimi Cole:
Yes. So I think that's a really important piece that you mentioned, that while it does get better, it's a forever process, unfortunately, with OCD. And so intrusive thoughts don't go away forever, but you learn how to cope with them and how to respond to them. So right now, I'm doing a lot of religious deconstruction work and figuring out what I was taught versus what I want to embody and what pieces I want to take with me.

Mimi Cole:
It is a little bit hard when you are an advocate and as someone who is trained to become a therapist, because sharing the hard days feels a little bit off to me sometimes just because of the spaces that I take up, but I am working on figuring out how to be vulnerable while also being professional, and trying to also bring so much of my story to the therapeutic room and to the world.

Ellie Pike:
And what you're doing is so beautiful and so incredible, so how can our listeners tune in and get to know you on social media and follow you and what you're working on?

Mimi Cole:
Yes. So The.LovelyBecoming is my handle on Instagram and Facebook, and then I have a website www.Mimi-Cole.com. And then lastly, you can email me at [email protected].

Ellie Pike:
Fantastic. And is that the number one, or spelled out one?

Mimi Cole:
Yes, it's the number one. Thank you for asking.

Ellie Pike:
Thank you so much, Mimi, for your beautiful story and for your voice and your activism.

Mimi Cole:
Thank you for having me. I'm so grateful.

Ellie Pike:
I'd actually like to turn back to Dr. Brady for a final thought on the prognosis for people diagnosed with OCD.

Dr. Charles Brady:
Yes. The word of hope is that you can reverse the trend on the OCD. What we know is OCD, it needs fuel, it needs food. And the food and fuel that it uses are the compulsions and the avoiding behaviors that people do. The less you do of those, the more quickly you're going to shrink the OCD and expand your life.

Ellie Pike:
As Mimi's story shows us, it is very possible to do exactly what Dr. Brady said, shrink the OCD and expand your life. So if OCD has been blocking you or someone you love, I highly encourage you to follow up with both of today's guests. Find Mimi's podcast and resources by visiting her website, Mimi-Cole.com, or Instagram, @TheLovelyBecoming. Dr. Brady can be found at Kitsap Peninsula OCD & Anxiety Services. Their website is www dot K-I-T-S-A-P OCD.com.

Ellie Pike:
Our sponsors, Eating Recovery Center and Pathlight Mood & Anxiety Center, are also hosting their annual conference as a virtual event this summer. Join hundreds of professionals on August 24th and 25th for the 2021 Pathlight Conference: Transformative Solutions in Mental Health Treatment. Dr. Brady will be an educator there. You won't want to miss the chance to learn more from him. Attendees can earn up to 15 CE credit hours, as well as learn practical skills to identify, assess, and treat patients with mental health disorders.

Ellie Pike:
Sign up at PathlightBH.com/event/PBH-conference. If you like our show, sign up for our e-newsletter and learn more about the people we interview at MentalNotePodcast.com. We'd also love it if you left us a review on iTunes. It helps others find our podcast. Mental Note is produced and hosted by me, Ellie Pike, and directed by Sam Pike, with editing help on today's episode from Ian Kelsall. Till next time.